Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

[lanman87]

I don’t see how anyone could. You don’t think Catholics believe this, do you?

When I see people say they are scared if they don’t do something then they will not get to heaven. Or if they go around doing things in the hope of getting to heaven as if getting to heaven depended on their acts of righteousness. Then yes, I believe many Catholics believe this.

Edit to add: I also believe many evangelicals believe this as well. It is very hard for our human minds to comprehend that Salvation is a free gift and that our works don’t earn us eternal life. We are programmed to earn and work for everything we get. Intellectually we may understand that grace, faith, and eternal life are free gifts. But our heart has a hard time accepting that so we still try to earn salvation. I think this is one of the devils great tricks to try and take our joy away. How can we possibly enjoy and rest in Christ if we are worried about messing up and losing His favor or not doing enough to gain His favor?

 

[fhansen]

Thanks TULIPed. Merry Christmas to you as well! And to all Calvinists and Catholics et al of good will!

 

[JonNC]

Shasta-Rose:

I think it goes without saying (that seems to be Paul’s thought) that as Christians, we will want to do good works. Not everybody is going to be in a position to do great works, but doing accessible favors for people now and then would count, right?

The problem comes in the times when we dont want to do the good works. Yes, the fruit of the Spirit will instill in us the desire,but being human, there are times when the LAST thing we want is to do good. We don’t want to forgive the one who has hurt us, want to hold the resentment toward those with which we are angry, feeling vengeful. These states of mind do not mean we are not “saved” but that we have not yet been made completely sanctified by grace. At such times, we must force ourselves to do what is right. This is heroic - acting in contradiction to our base human nature.

Yes, each choice of each day can enable us to grow in love. Holiness can be gained in the small everyday things.

When we fail in this way, the Spirit also urges and calls us to repentance, accessing the means of grace for forgiveness and renewal.

 

[lagerald24]

When I see people say they are scared if they don’t do something then they will not get to heaven. Or if they go around doing things in the hope of getting to heaven as if getting to heaven depended on their acts of righteousness. Then yes, I believe many Catholics believe this.

Actually, the Catholic belief is very Biblical. We hold to Revelation 14:12 which says, “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” It’s all by grace but that grace can be rejected out of our free will which God has given us. Also, we read in Hebrews 3:12-14, “Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called ‘today.’ Don’t be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.”

Please keep in mind that we don’t believe that we work our way into heaven. The grace God has given us is sufficient and, like any gift, can be cast aside. I could go into more details but I hope this clears up some issues.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

And today, as a Catholic, how do you hold this verse in tension with Romans 4? (I ask this without malice - I think Catholics and Protestants who love Christ in the hearts and confess him with their mouths aren’t so very far apart at all about faith)

I would say Romans 4 is part of the inerrant Word of God the same as James, Matthew 15, Matthew 25 and all of Scripture.

The faith that Abraham had in Romans 4 was a living faith, a working faith. He did not just believe and then stop. By reading the OT, Romans 4 and James we see that Abraham had a working faith. He walked in obedience to God. If he had believed God and then not obeyed things would have turned out a lot different.

When Catholics talk about doing good works, we know that these works are not done on our own, but by the grace of God. We can not boast. If we boast our boasting is in the Lord because daily He leads us, justifies us and sanctifies us with His grace but as He is reaching down to us with His grace, enabling us, we walk in obedience by accepting and cooperating in that grace.

Just as the psalmist said in Psalm 1, blessed is the man who delights in the law of the Lord.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

If my works cause me to be counted as righteous (now or in the future) then I am earning my salvation.

Works alone would be earning salvation and this is not Catholic teaching. The Church does not teach that we earn our salvation. God’s grace (actual grace) given to us daily is what gives us the ability to obey and do works but it is not works alone, nor faith alone.

I also believe many evangelicals believe this as well. It is very hard for our human minds to comprehend that Salvation is a free gift and that our works don’t earn us eternal life.

I have never met an evangelical who believed in works as earning salvation. As said above Catholics do not believe in earning salvation either. We agree it is a free gift but one that because of our sinfulness we can reject or ruin.

When I see people say they are scared if they don’t do something then they will not get to heaven. Or if they go around doing things in the hope of getting to heaven as if getting to heaven depended on their acts of righteousness. Then yes, I believe many Catholics believe this.

Jesus also said if you love Me you will keep My commandments and he who perseveres to the end would be saved. All of Scripture must be accepted not just a few verses.

There are things that we do or don’t do that will put our soul in jeopardy. We are not once saved, always saved. That is not Biblical. You should be just as botherd by those who say they can do or not do whatever because they are going to heaven anyway.

The New Living Translation is another translation of the many, many protestant Bibles I came across while protestant. It is another way of protestant scholars trying to explain something that is not true. The men who translated this Bible, not being part of the authority of the Church started by Jesus, keep me from accepting this translation no matter what words they use to try to explain it.

There is a show on EWTN called The Journey Home with Marcus Grodi. It is on Mondays at 7pm. Every Monday he interviews someone who came home to the Catholic Church from protestantism. Many times it is pastors. As a protestant watching the show you will hear how others filled in the gaps in protestant theology with the truths found only in the Catholic church.

 

[lanman87]

You should be just as botherd by those who say they can do or not do whatever because they are going to heaven anyway.

I am just as bothered, because that is not a “living faith”.

The New Living Translation is another translation of the many, many protestant Bibles I came across while protestant. It is another way of protestant scholars trying to explain something that is not true. The men who translated this Bible, not being part of the authority of the Church started by Jesus, keep me from accepting this translation no matter what words they use to try to explain it.

That is your right to accept or reject. However, when I looked at the Greek word for Justification and saw that is often used as “To give evidence” I saw that the NLT does a good job of showing the distinction between “Justify” (be declare just) and "justify (be shown as just). I don’t see how the context of the entire section can mean anything other than to be shown as just.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I am just as bothered, because that is not a “living faith”.

but that is protestant theology, so then if it bothers you then you are bothered by protestant theology. That is what bothered me as a protestant and that is why after reading God’s Word I realized I could not stay there.

 

[HopkinsReb]

lanman87:

I am just as bothered, because that is not a “living faith”.

but that is protestant theology, so then if it bothers you then you are bothered by protestant theology. That is what bothered me as a protestant and that is why after reading God’s Word I realized I could not stay there.

Be careful not to treat Protestant theology as monolithic. The Methodists and the Presbyterians believe very different things.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Be careful not to treat Protestant theology as monolithic. The Methodists and the Presbyterians believe very different things.

You are correct. They do have differences. There are also those such as the ana-Baptists and Restorationists who reject some of the mainline protestant and evanglical theologies.

 

[lanman87]

but that is protestant theology,

No, that is antinomian theology that is rejected by the vast majority of Evangelical/Protestant churches.

 

[guanophore]

When I see people say they are scared if they don’t do something then they will not get to heaven.

This is a good point. It would be more accurate for me to say that the Catholic Church does not teach this, though there are many poorly catechized Catholics that don’t know any better.

We cannot “work” our way into heaven, or “earn” the grace by which we are saved.

Or if they go around doing things in the hope of getting to heaven as if getting to heaven depended on their acts of righteousness. Then yes, I believe many Catholics believe this.

Sadly we are in agreement on this point.

we still try to earn salvation

Yes, there is a fundamental difference between doing the works that befit repentance, and trying to “earn” salvation by doing good works. It is a mindset, and the two are based on completely different assumptions.

How can we possibly enjoy and rest in Christ if we are worried about messing up and losing His favor or not doing enough to gain His favor?

This is a point where Catholics could do well to learn from our siblings in Christ!

 

[guanophore]

It’s all by grace but that grace can be rejected out of our free will which God has given us.

I think this is the point @lanman87 was making, and with which I agree. Yes, we need to work “out” our salvation, which we do by grace, through faith, but many Catholics misunderstand this to be working “on” salvation, which is a whole nuther thang!

Please keep in mind that we don’t believe that we work our way into heaven.

There are many Catholics that do think this, and act accordingly. It is a lack of understanding about grace.

 

[guanophore]

I saw that the NLT does a good job of showing the distinction between “Justify” (be declare just) and "justify (be shown as just). I don’t see how the context of the entire section can mean anything other than to be shown as just.

I agree, my hangup is when the words are added “before men”.

 

[HopkinsReb]

I think this is the point @lanman87 was making, and with which I agree. Yes, we need to work “out” our salvation, which we do by grace, through faith, but many Catholics misunderstand this to be working “on” salvation, which is a whole nuther thang!

In my current flirtation with Rome, I’ve been discussing my issues a lot with a good friend in my Anglican church, and this misunderstanding has really been a stumbling block to our hashing through things. This, and different understandings of what the word “faith” means.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

What is important is what the church actually teaches not what poorly catechized people think or those outside the Church think the church teaches.

As someone who recently stopped flirting with Rome and decided to cross the Tiber, I suggest you rely upon the church and her teaching authority. And, should you decide to cross the Tiber, endeavor to be a well-catechized Catholic who is faithful to the church as the bulwark of truth.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

No, that is antinomian theology that is rejected by the vast majority of Evangelical/Protestant churches.

In Aninomianism the belief is that there is no moral law that Christians are to obey. Yes most protestants accept that there is a moral law to obey but do not fear disobeying that law because they are “saved” and falsely believe that their salvation can not be lost. Contrary to Catholicism, which teaches that our disobedience to God through rejection of Him or committing mortal sin can put our soul in jeopardy and salvation will be lost.

There are many Catholics that do think this, and act accordingly. It is a lack of understanding about grace.

This could be true but I think the bigger issue is that protesants think that Catholics think they are working to earn their salvation.

 

[HopkinsReb]

What is important is what the church actually teaches not what poorly catechized people think or those outside the Church think the church teaches.

As someone who recently stopped flirting with Rome and decided to cross the Tiber, I suggest you rely upon the church and her teaching authority. And, should you decide to cross the Tiber, endeavor to be a well-catechized Catholic who is faithful to the church as the bulwark of truth.

Yup.

Shoot, he and I are probably better catechized than quite a few Catholics…

I’m discussing with this fellow because he’s sharp as a tack and very fair-minded, not because he’s an authority. He shares some of my concerns and so we really dig into them.

ETA: plus we live nearby, work a couple blocks from each other, and go to the same church, so we have plenty of opportunities.

 

[lanman87]

Yes most protestants accept that there is a moral law to obey but do not fear disobeying that law because they are “saved” and falsely believe that their salvation can not be lost.

Actually, most Protestant and Evangelicals do not adhere to OSAS. Lutherans, Episcopal, Methodist, Assembly of God, Free Will Baptist, Church of the Nazarene and the vast majority of Pentecostals teach that you can lose your salvation as a result of unbelief or indifference to the moral law. Also the Restorationist Church of Christ movement does not teach OSAS. Most Baptist do teach a form of OSAS and most Reformed hold the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, which isn’t exactly OSAS.

My point is none of the above groups teach it is okay to sin because you said a “sinner’s prayer”. Even those that teach OSAS also teach that we are to live a life of holiness and repentance in relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

 

[lanman87]

I agree, my hangup is when the words are added “before men”.

Just curious. Does God need/desire us to do works before Him so He will know we are just?