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Rhubarb
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Sometimes using imperfect models does that.
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wanstronian
Guest
As my original post got removed because I used the word “bigot” (NOT accusing you or anyone else on this thread, and it’s a dictionary word with a dictionary meaning that applied in the context of my comment - so not sure why I was censored), here is my reply again, without the b-word:
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Rhubarb
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I think even more importantly, what is seen as ‘manly’ and ‘womanly’ has changed over time, and changes across cultures.
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inocente
Guest
I’m no expert but biological sex determination seems to be a lot more complicated that just binary male female:
nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
quora.com/How-many-genders-or-sexes-are-there
Gender roles are cultural. At one extreme there are cultures which are so binary that teenagers are bullied, as in gay bashing, or even babies killed, as where there’s a preference for male offspring. Western culture may be moving to a more relaxed stance:
There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual. The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. - who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
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John_Martin
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I thought some wider thought might be useful here since American culture is very much driven by the currently popular “will of the people” rather than by the wise.
So I looked up the German version of Gender in the online Duden dictionary. And here is the translation.
(Of living creatures, especially of man and higher animals), the totality of the characteristics, according to which a living creature is usually unambiguously to be defined as male or female in relation to its function in reproduction
Interestingly, there is no proper German word for transgender, but they have adopted the American term of Transgender (the German language does adopt foreign words regularly)
Gender has to do with characteristics enabling reproduction (reproduction happening is why states regulate marriage - to promote and safeguard a future population of good and reliable citizens), and has nothing to do with an individual’s thoughts about the characteristics.
Gender identity, however, is a popular term promoted by activists favoring popular philosophy rather than the wisdom of tradition, and does not have to do with characteristics of an individual, but has to do with thoughts and emotions about the characteristics, and with the emotion of desiring the characteristic to be other than it is. And where there is desire, there is movement to actualize the desire - and so there is the political force to require acceptance of gender identity driven by the appetite to be other than the actual characteristics, and there is medical movement to modify actual characteristics driven again by the appetite to be actually other than the characteristics present, and by the appetites of medical “professionals” to experiment on humans rather than only on dumb animals (oh, but if the physical characteristic is now modified, do I need the term “gender identity” anymore - can’t I just say, “Look at my physical attributes; you can see my gender for yourself”.)
So I looked up the German version of Gender in the online Duden dictionary. And here is the translation.
(Of living creatures, especially of man and higher animals), the totality of the characteristics, according to which a living creature is usually unambiguously to be defined as male or female in relation to its function in reproduction
Interestingly, there is no proper German word for transgender, but they have adopted the American term of Transgender (the German language does adopt foreign words regularly)
Gender has to do with characteristics enabling reproduction (reproduction happening is why states regulate marriage - to promote and safeguard a future population of good and reliable citizens), and has nothing to do with an individual’s thoughts about the characteristics.
Gender identity, however, is a popular term promoted by activists favoring popular philosophy rather than the wisdom of tradition, and does not have to do with characteristics of an individual, but has to do with thoughts and emotions about the characteristics, and with the emotion of desiring the characteristic to be other than it is. And where there is desire, there is movement to actualize the desire - and so there is the political force to require acceptance of gender identity driven by the appetite to be other than the actual characteristics, and there is medical movement to modify actual characteristics driven again by the appetite to be actually other than the characteristics present, and by the appetites of medical “professionals” to experiment on humans rather than only on dumb animals (oh, but if the physical characteristic is now modified, do I need the term “gender identity” anymore - can’t I just say, “Look at my physical attributes; you can see my gender for yourself”.)
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BobCatholic
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And your comment further proves my point.
Sex is a characteristics of humans and living creatures.
Gender is a characteristic of words and objects - non-living things. (per your view)
The gender ideology is all about dehumanizing people and now (thanks to your point) de-emphasizing the living characteristic of people. People are just things, to be used, and not living, breathing beings.
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abucs
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I would say this is a western defined insanity that comes from the place where all our socially destructive insane ideas seem to incubate - the regressive Left university system. It is a cultural construction of the regressive Left academia and all the people they can influence. I do not have the culture of the regressive Left and certainly won’t be bound by their insanity in how they see the world.
I would very much expect that if i had a conversation with the kathoey, the Berdache or the fa’afafine about the beliefs of Western secular regressive Left regarding gender they’d very much agree with me that they are completely insane.
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inocente
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I don’t speak German but spent five minutes using google machine translation, and found dictionaries which all gave similar definitions to English and Spanish, for both Geschlecht (gender) and Geschlechtsrolle (gender roll), including a German lexicon for psychiatrists which uses English loan words.
One article referred to ICD-1, which turns out to be “the 10th revision of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), a medical classification list by the World Health Organization (WHO)”.
Playing the same game with Chinese found similar definitions for 性別不安症.
Hard to believe there’s a worldwide political conspiracy, rather than simply a worldwide psychiatric recognition of a condition which that Chinese word translates to ‘gender unrest’.
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inocente
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I don’t speak German but spent five minutes using google machine translation, and found other dictionaries which gave similar definitions to English and Spanish, for both Geschlecht (gender) and Geschlechtsrolle (gender roll), including a German lexicon for psychiatrists which uses English loan words.
One article referred to ICD-10, which turns out to be “the 10th revision of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), a medical classification list by the World Health Organization (WHO)”.
Playing the same game with Chinese found similar definitions for 性別不安症.
Hard to believe there’s a worldwide political conspiracy, rather than simply a worldwide psychiatric recognition of a condition which that Chinese word translates to ‘gender unrest’.
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inocente
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I looked around online. Kathoey is a traditional third gender in Thailand, and fa’afafine in Samoa. ‘Berdache’ turns out to be a pejorative term used by French traders and missionaries for roles they did not understand in Mississippi Valley native peoples. Native American peoples have words for those roles in their own languages, and say there are no equivalent roles in Western societies, but some say the best translation would be ‘twospirit’.
Western colonialists believed they alone had the only rational way of life and needed to ‘civilize’ the peoples they subjugated, peoples who thought the colonialists were completely insane.
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John_Martin
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Many come to this site seeking Catholic Answers, (presumably from the name of the site: “Catholic Answers”; who would have thought such a thing???)
And if they are not critical, not looking up to the upper right side of an answer, would see you are a senior member on Catholic Answers and think they are getting a Catholic Answer.
Sadly they are getting popular opinion from you, not a Catholic Answer to their search. They are getting an apologetic for accepting popular modern social sentiment, an emotional movement (“I don’t **feel **I am what my body shows”), as if it were equal to intellectual answer to a question of quiddity. "I don’t like ‘what it is’ so I desire to be known (intellect) according to my emotional attachment (appetite) rather than my actual attributes.
A Catholic Answer comes from many thousands of years of tradition of The People, passing down and understanding what Gender is, being subject to the tradition our Lord and our God spoke for us to remember and keep. God made them male and female.
In the spirit of the name of this site, I would think those coming with non-Catholic thought would come with questions of “What is Catholic, when my understanding is different”, but not come to Catholic Answers saying “This is the Answer” under a then false association of their “this is the answer” with the name “Catholic Answers”.
Your answer is not Catholic, yet you post it as the Answer on Catholic Answers.
Would you not be more honest saying, "This is not a Catholic Answer, but from my choice I am giving you my non-Catholic answer: … "?
That way a non-critical reader would at least be aware that you are speaking contrary to the tradition we are pledged to hold, and asking us to be also “non-Catholic” in our understanding.
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ThinkingSapien
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The following is from the O.E.D. the O.E.D. also gives the sources for the known uses of a word along with the year. I’ve included the date of only the earliest usage listed for each definition.
If these definitions are to be used against modern uses of the word “gender” I don’t expect much success. The uses of words within a language are subject to change. Dictionaries update their entries based on the the evolution of those uses. That is why “virtually” is now a possibly definition of “literally” (among many other autoantonyms).
Some of the books I found interesting on word change include “words on the move” by John McWhorter (teaches language classes at Columbia University, he looks at Dictionaries as being like a photograph of a moving subject), Bad English by Ammon Shea (he works for OED) and Etymologicon by Mark Forsyth (linguist)
O.E.D.:
If these definitions are to be used against modern uses of the word “gender” I don’t expect much success. The uses of words within a language are subject to change. Dictionaries update their entries based on the the evolution of those uses. That is why “virtually” is now a possibly definition of “literally” (among many other autoantonyms).
Some of the books I found interesting on word change include “words on the move” by John McWhorter (teaches language classes at Columbia University, he looks at Dictionaries as being like a photograph of a moving subject), Bad English by Ammon Shea (he works for OED) and Etymologicon by Mark Forsyth (linguist)
O.E.D.:
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inocente
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Seems a bit desperate, John
.That’s an argumentum ad hominem - “the logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself”.
This is a forum, and its policy is “Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity”. The reader can see who isn’t Catholic just by looking at the top-right of a post. Although of course there may be posters who say they are Catholic but are not, or who are Catholic but give non-Catholic answers, so the reader cannot assume that every poster who says he is Catholic is infallible.
This is a philosophy forum, why not make a valid argument. Your claim seems to be that what I said contradicts what the Church teaches about native peoples or colonialists or something else in the post. A valid rebuttal would be for you to cite the relevant documents on www.vatican.va for evidence so that your ‘non-critical reader’ can judge for herself. Here’s the post you’re criticizing again:
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edwest2
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PASCENDI
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There is a reason the revolutionaries prefer gender. It is arbitrary and has little to do with biology.
aberrosexualism.blogspot.com/2014/03/normal-0-21-false-false-false-en-us-x.html?m=1
aberrosexualism.blogspot.com/2014/03/normal-0-21-false-false-false-en-us-x.html?m=1
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edwest2
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The Church tells us it is not arbitrary.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html
Ed
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html
Ed
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PASCENDI
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Not germain to the discussion. Sex is determined by nAture.
Gender is not. It’s abitrary. When you say La Mesa in Spanish, it is a feminine word for table but the table is not of the female sex
Gender is not. It’s abitrary. When you say La Mesa in Spanish, it is a feminine word for table but the table is not of the female sex
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IWantGod
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And how do you know it wasn’t a right wing academic that changed it all.Yes, i prefer to not recognise their changes but when they insist i point to the re-definitions by leftist academics and honestly convey that we just don’t share the same culture anymore.
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