Definition Of heretical Groups

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At this link; I have been reading a Catholic magazine article about hell; and in the first paragraph, as a parenthetical remark preceding the main ideas about hell, the author called a number of religious groups **“heretical groups.” **Of course, Seventh-day Adventists were on their list.

I would like to explore what a heretical group is. Regardless of the group in question; there must be some definitive principles and guidelines by which the Catholic Church would make such a pronouncement.

Further; there are some related questions and issues I will be interested to explore here regarding anti-Adventist attitudes in this definition of “heretical groups.” I have often been hit here with the charge that as an Adventist; I am “anti-Catholic,” and to me; calling us this, is anti-Adventist. Calling us “heretics” publicly is hate literature. Catholics have said to me here a number of times that they are not anti-Adventist; yet this is hard to believe in light of comments like what this article shows.
 
Protestant101 said:
At this link; I have been reading a Catholic magazine article about hell; and in the first paragraph, as a parenthetical remark preceding the main ideas about hell, the author called a number of religious groups **“heretical groups.” **Of course, Seventh-day Adventists were on their list.

I would like to explore what a heretical group is. Regardless of the group in question; there must be some definitive principles and guidelines by which the Catholic Church would make such a pronouncement.

Further; there are some related questions and issues I will be interested to explore here regarding anti-Adventist attitudes in this definition of “heretical groups.” I have often been hit here with the charge that as an Adventist; I am “anti-Catholic,” and to me; calling us this, is anti-Adventist. Catholics have said to me here a number of times that they are not anti-Adventist; yet this is hard to believe in light of comments like what this article shows.
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Any Catholic that told you they weren’t “anti-SDA” either were lying, or don’t know their own Faith.

As a Catholic, I’m anti-everythingelse. Period. The Catholic Faith is the One True Faith, and everything else is WRONG. Period.

As for what makes a group “heretical”, it is being a Trinitarian confessing group, but goes against any Teaching of the Catholic Church. Mormons aren’t heretics, they’re pagans and apostates. As for the Seventh Day Adventists, I’ve never been able to “nail down” their beliefs in the Holy Trinity, so I can’t say whether they are pagan or heretics. As a SDA, do you accept the Doctrine of the Trinity? If so, you are a heretic, if not, then you are a pagan. If you were baptized a Trinitarian, but now deny it, you are an apostate.
 
Are you speaking official Catholic teaching here or personal opinion? I was under the impression from other, past posts of other topics that one has to have been a Catholic at some point first, before they could be an “apostate?”

Does the Catholic Church have an official statement regarding Adventists being “heretics?”
 
I could not vote in your poll in light of the choices stated. Heresy results from an unorthodox teaching that moves away from the true gospel of Jesus Christ. An example might be where Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the divinity of Christ. That is not only a Catholic heretical viewpoint but would be held by all Christians who fall within the pail of orthodoxy taught from the apostolic era. I know that in your tenets of faith you adhere to “soul sleep” which indicates that one is unconscience at death and will not see salvation until Christ comes again. This falls out of the realm of ancient Christian teachings and even to today most Protestants do not adhere to such an understanding of what is revealed in Scripture and the Catholic church also recognizes Sacred Tradition as our deposit of faith along with Sacred Scripture and nowhere do we find this teaching. So definitively speaking this would be a heretical teaching. From the first century Church Scripture describes Sunday as the Lord’s day recognizing His resurrection as the centrality of Christian faith. To remain in a sabbatarian theology would not parallel with Christian worship as followed since the first century.

As far as the Catholic Church finding heresy in other Protestant denominations the criteria remains the same. We see the Eucharist as a merely symbolic remembrance** not to be** in line with ancient Early Church Father’s writings. We would consider anyone not recognizing the Eucharist as the true Body, Blood, Soul, and divinity of Christ as heretical. This is not to lose sight of ecumenical relationships with our fellow Christians but to uphold what the Christian Church has taught for 2000 years.

So I will find your poll most interesting but as a Roman Catholic I do not feel that your choices reflect anything that a Catholic might answer. We’ll see…teachccd:)
 
Protestant101 said:
At this link; I have been reading a Catholic magazine article about hell; and in the first paragraph, as a parenthetical remark preceding the main ideas about hell, the author called a number of religious groups **“heretical groups.” **Of course, Seventh-day Adventists were on their list.

I would like to explore what a heretical group is. Regardless of the group in question; there must be some definitive principles and guidelines by which the Catholic Church would make such a pronouncement.

Further; there are some related questions and issues I will be interested to explore here regarding anti-Adventist attitudes in this definition of “heretical groups.” I have often been hit here with the charge that as an Adventist; I am “anti-Catholic,” and to me; calling us this, is anti-Adventist. Calling us “heretics” publicly is hate literature. Catholics have said to me here a number of times that they are not anti-Adventist; yet this is hard to believe in light of comments like what this article shows.
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From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. 'Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.’

It seems that people use the word heresy with abandon at times. Anyone who was never a Catholic cannot be a heretic of the Catholic Church.

Who gets to decide who is a hertic? The CC has every right to decide who is a heretical Catholic. “Catholic” being the key word here.

As for calling some protestant denomination ‘heretical’. The term is often used to refer to the belief system of a denomination that broke off from the CC. For example… if a Catholic ebraced the beliefs of your denomination, their belief would be heretical.

Catholics get to decide for ourselves who we believe are heretics.

Seventh-day Adventists get to decide for themselves who they think are heretics.
 
Oh, and I did not vote in your poll because there were no choices I felt comfortable with.
 
Protestant101 said:
Are you speaking official Catholic teaching here or personal opinion? I was under the impression from other, past posts of other topics that one has to have been a Catholic at some point first, before they could be an “apostate?”

Does the Catholic Church have an official statement regarding Adventists being “heretics?”
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I am giving you the “official” definitions.

A “pagan” is one who has only, and still accepts beliefs that do not acknowledge the Holy Trinity.

A “heretic” is one who was baptized a Christian (using the “Trinitarian formula”), but refuses the Authority of the Catholic Church.

A “apostate” is one who was baptized a Christian (using the “Trinitarian formula”), but now accepts pagan beliefs.

As for the situation of the the Seventh Day Adventists, like I said, it all depends on whether or not the “creed” of the group accepts the Doctrine of the Trinity or not. If not, then they are pagan, like the Mormons, Unitarians, Quakers, etc. If they do accept the Doctrine of the Trinity, then they are heretics, like the Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.
 
Protestant101 said:
Does the Catholic Church have an official statement regarding Adventists being “heretics?”
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Yes and no. We do not have a formal statement concerning SDAs. But we do uphold our faith and anyone who does not adhere to the true gospel of Jesus Christ falls into heresy. This would include the man on the moon if he thought that Jesus was not God or any other denials of the true Christian faith…God Bless…teachccd:)
 
Protestant101 said:
At this link; I have been reading a Catholic magazine article about hell; and in the first paragraph, as a parenthetical remark preceding the main ideas about hell, the author called a number of religious groups **“heretical groups.” **Of course, Seventh-day Adventists were on their list.

I would like to explore what a heretical group is. Regardless of the group in question; there must be some definitive principles and guidelines by which the Catholic Church would make such a pronouncement.

Further; there are some related questions and issues I will be interested to explore here regarding anti-Adventist attitudes in this definition of “heretical groups.” I have often been hit here with the charge that as an Adventist; I am “anti-Catholic,” and to me; calling us this, is anti-Adventist. Calling us “heretics” publicly is hate literature. Catholics have said to me here a number of times that they are not anti-Adventist; yet this is hard to believe in light of comments like what this article shows.
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I guess I don’t get the point.

You are upset because the Catholic Church, as she has the right to do, groups your denomination with others having similar deviations from orthodox Catholic Christianity. Would you feel better if the Church approved of your teachings? Considering the strong language Adventist literature uses for the Catholic Church, I doubt it. The Church has every right to define what teachings are contrary to the Catholic faith, and which groups are teaching heterodox views. Thats not hate literature.

Your poll has no acceptable choices.

A heretical group is a group that teaches contrary to Catholic faith. (what Adventist would deny that Adventist teachings are contrary to Catholic doctrine?)
A schismatic group shares doctrine but does not recognize the authority of the Catholic Church. (this is obviously not a category Adventists would fit into)
A pagan or non Christian group would be one, that even if they profess a belief in Jesus, would deny the divinity of Jesus or an orthodox belief in the Trinity. ( Many Adventist founders were arian. Even today, especially among ‘historical Adventists’ there are non-trinitarian Adventists).

I call Adventists Anti-catholic when they knowingly and intentionally spread lies and half truths about Catholicism. Their literature is full of such references. The ‘Great Controversy’ by Ellen G. White is full of references that the Catholic Church is a ‘whore’ is the ‘beast’ etc. False accusations against the Church are throughout the book. It contains a biased and twisted view of history. Its full of outright historical errors, such as she says Albigensians and Waldensians were sabbatarians. She says that Contstantine instituted Sunday worship. Even the SDA Church’s own historians have had to admit that is wrong. I call Adventists anti-catholic because I have personally witnessed many of them using any means they can think of to sway Catholic people to leave their church for Adventism. I know, firsthand, that they target catholics for their ‘evangelism’ and come up with strategies to exploit any opening they can think of. Just recently, at an SDA social I attended with my SDA mother, I was sitting right at the same table where the pastor and another man were discussing ideas about the ‘best way’ to ‘get a catholic’. It was disgusting.

Its obvious Adventists do not consider Catholics to be Christians worthy of respect. Don’t even think of posting a rebuttal that its not individual catholics, just the ‘institution’. All that shows is you have no concept of what it means to be Church.

The truth is Adventists are very hostile towards the Catholic faith.
They believe the papacy to be the beast, and believe that the scarlet woman of revelation is the Catholic Church. I have had the Church that I love called ‘whore’ to my face by Adventists who don’t seem to understand, that “Oh, its just the institution, not the people” does not take away that offense.

MarysRoses
 
Protestant101 said:
At this link; I have been reading a Catholic magazine article about hell; and in the first paragraph, as a parenthetical remark preceding the main ideas about hell, the author called a number of religious groups **“heretical groups.” **Of course, Seventh-day Adventists were on their list.

I would like to explore what a heretical group is. Regardless of the group in question; there must be some definitive principles and guidelines by which the Catholic Church would make such a pronouncement.

Further; there are some related questions and issues I will be interested to explore here regarding anti-Adventist attitudes in this definition of “heretical groups.” I have often been hit here with the charge that as an Adventist; I am “anti-Catholic,” and to me; calling us this, is anti-Adventist. Calling us “heretics” publicly is hate literature. Catholics have said to me here a number of times that they are not anti-Adventist; yet this is hard to believe in light of comments like what this article shows.
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look, articles smarticles. Why do you read what articles say? Iam not anti adventist. i pray for the conversion of the whole world. so no, iam not anti adventist. iam not anti protestant. i have relatives who are adventists. i’ve ran across adventists who have deep seated anti catholic feelings and attitude. but does that bother me? no. why should it? it doesn’t.

to each his own. i believe we all have a right to believe what we want. whether i believe what they believe is the truth is my opinion, not anyone elses. i deal with all faiths equally and respectfully regardless of what they believe. do i believe catholics have the truth? absolutely. most definitely. do i read articles about heretical groups? no. i’d prefer to spend my time worshipping God and not worrying about what article says what.

when we have dialogue with other faiths, we must keep in mind that not all faiths regardless of what they are, believe what we do. therefore it is of the utmost importance that we treat each other with genuine love and not disrespect or hostility.

anti this and anti that does not open the door for charitable discussion or dialogue no matter what you believe. in order for us to discuss things rationally, we must take into account what others believe and why they believe it. then we must have charitable discussion about what they believe.

to much time and energy is wasted on oh your wrong, your so wrong, and oh your going to hell, or your not right, why not discuss things rationally? its up to God to decide who is saved and who is not. the church defines heresy very clearly. do i believe they are right? yes. am i going to force that down anyones throat? no. am i going to go around calling adventist or protestants heretical? no. its not my place to do so.

i think we can have open dialogue and get along if we want to, and if we try.
 
TraditionalCath said:
to each his own. i believe we all have a right to believe what we want. whether i believe what they believe is the truth is my opinion, not anyone elses. i deal with all faiths equally and respectfully regardless of what they believe. do i believe catholics have the truth? absolutely. most definitely. do i read articles about heretical groups? no. i’d prefer to spend my time worshipping God and not worrying about what article says what.
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Funny thing here. Jesus didn’t feel this way with the Pharisees. He said,“I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” That doesn’t leave much room for, “to each his own”. While we must be respectful of all people, we cannot respect theologies that disrespect the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Part of worshipping God is proclaiming the gospel. If the early Church did not attend to the Arian heresy that was running rampant during the early centuries, who knows what may heve happened. All of the Church councils dealt with the many heretical groups who tried to destroy the Church.

Burying one’s head in the sand and declaring that as long as what I do is right the rest doesn’t matter only masks a much greater issue. And that issue is one of allowing everyone to hear the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The Seventh Day Adventists, of which the Jehovah’s Witnesses spun off of, are pulling in thousands of followers who are, in turn, being led to a false gospel. It is our duty as Catholic Christians to evangelize to anyone who will listen and not take the attitude: Faith is a private choice. While ultimately it is to each individual, souls may be lost and I feel that we would be in the sin of omission if we do nothing about this…God Bless…teachccd:)
 
My Replies will be in red fonts:
MarysRoses said:
I guess I don’t get the point.

You are upset because the Catholic Church, as she has the right to do, groups your denomination with others having similar deviations from orthodox Catholic Christianity. Would you feel better if the Church approved of your teachings? Considering the strong language Adventist literature uses for the Catholic Church, I doubt it. The Church has every right to define what teachings are contrary to the Catholic faith, and which groups are teaching heterodox views. Thats not hate literature.

Hello Maria; you can relax; I am not “upset.” No, I don’t want you to agree with “my teachings.” And yes; I can agree; that FOR Catholics, Catholics should decide who is or who is not ]

Your poll has no acceptable choices.

[The poll was not meant to define any point of theology; only to elicit current thinking on the subject at hand; and to provide preliminary information on things I see in this situation ]

A heretical group is a group that teaches contrary to Catholic faith. (what Adventist would deny that Adventist teachings are contrary to Catholic doctrine?)

[This was one of my questions. It looks like from the post above where the Catechism was quoted; that “heretic” is something that happens “post-baptismal.” Is this “baptism” meaning as in only the Catholic Church; or, as in any church?]

A schismatic group shares doctrine but does not recognize the authority of the Catholic Church. (this is obviously not a category Adventists would fit into)
A pagan or non Christian group would be one, that even if they profess a belief in Jesus, would deny the divinity of Jesus or an orthodox belief in the Trinity. ( Many Adventist founders were arian. Even today, especially among ‘historical Adventists’ there are non-trinitarian Adventists).

[If you want to insist on Ratzlaf’s Protestant lies to back this up; that’s fine; but it is simply not true that there are “non-Trinitarian” Adventists; especially amongst “historical” ones. It sure is odd how some Catholics run to other Protestants for “truth” when they think they need to. What’s wrong with Catholic truth?]

I call Adventists Anti-catholic when they knowingly and intentionally spread lies and half truths about Catholicism. Their literature is full of such references. The ‘Great Controversy’ by Ellen G. White is full of references that the Catholic Church is a ‘whore’ is the ‘beast’ etc. False accusations against the Church are throughout the book. It contains a biased and twisted view of history. Its full of outright historical errors, such as she says Albigensians and Waldensians were sabbatarians. She says that Contstantine instituted Sunday worship. Even the SDA Church’s own historians have had to admit that is wrong. I call Adventists anti-catholic because I have personally witnessed many of them using any means they can think of to sway Catholic people to leave their church for Adventism. I know, firsthand, that they target catholics for their ‘evangelism’ and come up with strategies to exploit any opening they can think of. Just recently, at an SDA social I attended with my SDA mother, I was sitting right at the same table where the pastor and another man were discussing ideas about the ‘best way’ to ‘get a catholic’. It was disgusting.

Its obvious Adventists do not consider Catholics to be Christians worthy of respect. Don’t even think of posting a rebuttal that its not individual catholics, just the ‘institution’. All that shows is you have no concept of what it means to be Church.

Anecdotal evidence is different than official teachings. Your personal experience/perceptions cannot define Adventist or Catholic beliefs.

[Also, right here on your own forum; you have a lot of versions on “how to get an Adventist;” by “top” Catholic apologists, and for an eg., look at the thread called Witnessing To Adventists; Idea #1.]

cont’d next post
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The truth is Adventists are very hostile towards the Catholic faith.
They believe the papacy to be the beast, and believe that the scarlet woman of revelation is the Catholic Church. I have had the Church that I love called ‘whore’ to my face by Adventists who don’t seem to understand, that “Oh, its just the institution, not the people” does not take away that offense. MarysRoses

I don’t believe that Adventists are “hostile” to Catholics, or vise-versa. Theologies and doctrines are bound to clash, and even cause “offence;” but we must both learn to try to show the love for one another that Christ would have us do.

You are not alone in having anecdotal “evidence” to “show” how Adventists are this or that. I have lots of stories about what Catholics have said or done to me personally too. I remember an incident recently where I went into a Catholic bookstore to get some information. I said absolutely nothing about who I was; only that I was looking for a book that had official Catholic teachings about prophecy. He handed me several books to look at, and I could see that it was just private authers who wrote them; but to clarify; I asked once more: “Are these considered official teachings of the Church?” All of a sudden; the guy started raising his voice and yelling all kinds of stuff to me about church authority and the like. I was sure glad to get out of that book store! I bought the books anyways and have them here in my library.

But this is all anecdotal stuff that does not determine official Catholic teachings. I am only trying to determine what that is here. I am not mad!! 😉
 
teachccd said:
Funny thing here. Jesus didn’t feel this way with the Pharisees. He said,“I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” That doesn’t leave much room for, “to each his own”. While we must be respectful of all people, we cannot respect theologies that disrespect the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Part of worshipping God is proclaiming the gospel. If the early Church did not attend to the Arian heresy that was running rampant during the early centuries, who knows what may heve happened. All of the Church councils dealt with the many heretical groups who tried to destroy the Church.

Burying one’s head in the sand and declaring that as long as what I do is right the rest doesn’t matter only masks a much greater issue. And that issue is one of allowing everyone to hear the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The Seventh Day Adventists, of which the Jehovah’s Witnesses spun off of, are pulling in thousands of followers who are, in turn, being led to a false gospel. It is our duty as Catholic Christians to evangelize to anyone who will listen and not take the attitude: Faith is a private choice. While ultimately it is to each individual, souls may be lost and I feel that we would be in the sin of omission if we do nothing about this…God Bless…teachccd:)
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Hi!

I just had to mention that I enjoy reading your posts, even in consideration of our disagreements. You reflect someone who really is interested in showing Christ’s love to me when you post, no matter what you post about. 👍
 
To those who voted in the poll for the 1st choice, or who will vote for this in the future.

By voting as you did, you are saying that a heretical group is a cult, deserving of civil penalties and restraint where possible.

In the ideal situation where conditions were favorable; how would you think this should be carried out, with, say Adventists?

What official Catholic teachings would you use to back up your statements on this question?
 
Protestant101 said:
Hi!

I just had to mention that I enjoy reading your posts, even in consideration of our disagreements. You reflect someone who really is interested in showing Christ’s love to me when you post, no matter what you post about. 👍
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Thank you. We are all here to seek God and He loves every last one of us. So, if we truly have God in our hearts, should we not also do the same?? Yes, we will disagree on faith issues but if we center ourselves on love then we center ourselves on God. And that is not a bad place to meet…teachccd:)
 
Protestant101 said:
To those who voted in the poll for the 1st choice, or who will vote for this in the future.

By voting as you did, you are saying that a heretical group is a cult, deserving of civil penalties and restraint where possible.

In the ideal situation where conditions were favorable; how would you think this should be carried out, with, say Adventists?

What official Catholic teachings would you use to back up your statements on this question?
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Only one person voted for your first choice and that is NOT reflective of what a true Catholic Christian would believe. We’ve come a long way from burning people at the stake.:eek: We should treat Seventh Day Adventists as we would anyone who does not accept the Catholic faith. How?? By showing them in a loving manner the documented truths and resources dating back 2000 years up to and including the present. Jesus never twisted anyone’s arm. He said,“I am the way, the truth, and the life.” We either follow Him or walk away. And he let those who would not follow, as in the gospel of John Chapter 6, walk away.

The Holy Spirit ultimately seeks the conversion of souls. We are only His instruments. So, as a Catholic, I will not water down my faith to accomodate any false gospel but I will also not disrespect the person as being a child of God.

You really would hope perhaps that some would choose choice number one so as to see maybe some animosity towards your faith. In the Catholic Church we hold true to the Gospel and proclaim it as such. That’s all. No arm twisting. Those days are pretty much over. It never worked then and won’t work now…God Bless…teachccd
 
teachccd said:
Only one person voted for your first choice and that is NOT reflective of what a true Catholic Christian would believe. We’ve come a long way from burning people at the stake.:eek:

No arm twisting. Those days are pretty much over. It never worked then and won’t work now…God Bless…teachccd
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Yes, I noticed after I posted above that it was only one poster who said that; but in other threads here, there are more.

I have many questions about all this; but one has to wonder, why the burnings at the stake EVER ocurred anyways.

I know that some misled “Protestants” have done their share of “tit for tat” on this one; but I am trying to investigate this from a Catholic perspective.

What Catholic laws or doctrines would support the ones who did these heinous things of the past? What, in their belief system, would tell them it was OK to "use/allow civil authorities to do such things to people who would not “repent;” The true character and history of Romanism; has such a strange blend with Catholicism.

I don’t talk just from an Adventist point of view. There are a lot of people who have thought about it and wondered what The Catholic Church might do again; should political conditions pave the way again in the future. The continuity of the rule of Rome, in it’s double aspect of Pagan and Papal influence has me puzzled about the whole question concerning heretics, and how Roman Catholics officially view us.

I do feel the love and the warmth from a few on this forum; and I appreciate that; but with others here, I don’t experience that at all.

I would like to see Catholic statements regarding some of their persecutions and such of the past. Why they did it; what they think of it now; etc. I appreciate all comments here; but am hoping to uncover official Catholic writings on my questions.
 
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