Definition of the term "pro-life"

[dmelosi]

Somewhere somehow, abortion in your mind does not mean taking of a life. Such a sad sad thing.

And rereading my post, I realize I was a bit fuzzy, and easy to misunderstand.

OK, so…

Social justice issues such as poverty, worker’s rights and health care have nothing to do with stem cell research and gay marriage. They have everything to do with abortion…

and so on.

 

[ribozyme]

Somewhere somehow, abortion in your mind does not mean taking of a life. Such a sad sad thing.

I doubt that bzycat was supporting abortion or even capitulating to a utilitarian ethic…

And rereading my post, I realize I was a bit fuzzy, and easy to misunderstand.

OK, so…

Social justice issues such as poverty, worker’s rights and health care have nothing to do with stem cell research and gay marriage. They have everything to do with abortion…

and so on.

The quote did not state abortion is morally acceptable, simply that it is an issue that does not exist in a vacuum.

For example, a utilitarian might say it is morally acceptable to allow abortion because the parents do not have the means to provide the child with a descent life. You have to remember that most of the utilitarian arguments for abortion are centered with the quality of life of the child. I know this because I believe in those arguments.

I am sure if the gini coefficent was less in the United States, there would be less abortion.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Hmm…

A lot of people, especially on the “Christian” right, define pro-life strictly in terms of being anti-abortion, some expand it to being anti-euthanasia, and it stops there.

The Catholic Church has a much more expansive definition, including social justice issues such as workers’ rights, health care, assistance for the poor, etc., as well as contraception and gay marriage, but IMO, it doesn’t go far enough.

I consider the unjust, illegal war in Iraq to be a “life issue”. You cannot support the invasion and occupation of an oil-rich country, carried out on false pretenses of “fighting terrorism” killing innocent civilians in their thousands solely to boost the profits of the oil companies, not to mention the torture of detainees in Guantanamo Bay, most of whom are in no way terrorists, and call yourself “pro-life”.

Well said. Like so many of the Ultra right, Catholics have also shown a good deal less interest in life issues that don’t revolve around people’s personal sexual behavior. Continually you find folks who appose abortion but are gleefully supportive of war and capital punishment. Everyone says they are for justice in the world, yet the only thing that gets em out to the rally is abortion or gay marriage.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

First, I’m sorry if you think I am harsh, its not my intent. I type fast, am blunt and apparently harsh. But you have me wrong, I don’t watch FOX news, I can easily separate life issues from social justice issues because I really try to follow the teaching of the church, and either you or I totally misunderstand the ‘first question’ because the question is what is Pro-Life. Pro-Life is related to the 5 non-negotiables, not to social issues. It has everything to do with embryonic stem cell research, gay marriage, etc. So perhaps we simply do not understand each other.

BTW, regarding social issues, you state that the GOP does not care about social justice issues. You are wrong. They do care, but they care in a way that you disagree with. It does not make it less valid, it just makes it something you don’t agree with. There are many members of our faith, many priests and bishops, on both sides of the political aisle. We are the universal church and there is room for honest disagreement on social issues. It is interesting that many Church Food Pantries and Church sponsored shelters do “means” testing and often have qualifications and requirements that must be met, this is not very different than many of the proposals of the GOP, yet you find the GOP does not care. I believe both parties have major faults, but I try to look for multiple sides of issues.

Again, sorry of you think I am harsh, it is not my intent

I will agree with your split between “life” issues and “social” issues, but it cannot be denied that Catholics for the most part will respond to the former and give way less attention to the latter which encompasses just as much needless and wrongful loss of life.

And as to the GOP I disagree. They SAY a great deal on this subject. But they do it for your VOTE. They actually do next to nothing. As a Jewish “Think Tank” type said recently. Exactly where are the evangelical right folks gonna go? The GOP knows this, they exploit it shamelessly, and most of the Evangelical right wing continue to endorse them. It’s amusing why the Right keeps falling for it.

 

[dmelosi]

I will agree with your split between “life” issues and “social” issues, but it cannot be denied that Catholics for the most part will respond to the former and give way less attention to the latter which encompasses just as much needless and wrongful loss of life.

And as to the GOP I disagree. They SAY a great deal on this subject. But they do it for your VOTE. They actually do next to nothing. As a Jewish “Think Tank” type said recently. Exactly where are the evangelical right folks gonna go? The GOP knows this, they exploit it shamelessly, and most of the Evangelical right wing continue to endorse them. It’s amusing why the Right keeps falling for it.

The term Pro-life was coined by abortion rights opponents after the supreme court ruled Roe vs Wade in 1973. Originally you were either Pro-Life or Pro-Abortion. It meant this and nothing more. My source on this is answers.com/topic/pro-life-movement. As you read this definition there, you can tell that they are very pro abortion, so I don’t think you can make the case that Pro-Life meant anything else based on this source.

Since then, many Catholics have looked for ways to ease their conscious and vote for pro-abortion candidates. For those that vote for pro abort candidates, simply say that this abortion issue is not important to you and stop trying to ease your guilt.

It is ok to be against the war, the social issues are hugely important to all of us and it is our individual duty to do everything we can.

Abortion is murder and when you try to make it anything else or lump it with anything else, you are just trying to fool yourselves, you fool no one else.

If you support pro abort candidates, I don’t know how you can call yourself pro life.

 

[fix]

Well said. Like so many of the Ultra right, Catholics have also shown a good deal less interest in life issues that don’t revolve around people’s personal sexual behavior. Continually you find folks who appose abortion but are gleefully supportive of war and capital punishment. Everyone says they are for justice in the world, yet the only thing that gets em out to the rally is abortion or gay marriage.

Probably because abortion and “gay marriage” are always evil. The other things you mention are not always evil.

 

[dmelosi]

Well said. Like so many of the Ultra right

What do you consider to be the Ultra right?

Continually you find folks who appose abortion but are gleefully supportive of war and capital punishment.

If you look through all of the posts on Catholic answers, I don’t think you will find one post that is gleefully supportive of war and capital punishment. Gross exaggeration.

yet the only thing that gets em out to the rally is abortion or gay marriage.

I think you are very mistaken to think that Catholics who are truly pro life do not care about the other very important issues.

Personally, I do find it much harder to believe the politicians who have sold their soul to the devil on abortion than those that are against it.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

---

The term Pro-life was coined by abortion rights opponents after the supreme court ruled Roe vs Wade in 1973. Originally you were either Pro-Life or Pro-Abortion. It meant this and nothing more. My source on this is answers.com/topic/pro-life-movement. As you read this definition there, you can tell that they are very pro abortion, so I don’t think you can make the case that Pro-Life meant anything else based on this source.
**I agree. The anti-abortionists renamed themselves pro-life Actually I think we usually heard the term Pro-Roe v wade back then, and not pro-abortion. I never said anything to the contrary so you had no need to prove this to me…I agree. I have no idea what you mean “you can see they were very pro abortion”…who? I gave no source at all…I don’t disagree with you on how the name pro-life originated. There is nothing in the post that suggested that. **
Since then, many Catholics have looked for ways to ease their conscious and vote for pro-abortion candidates. For those that vote for pro abort candidates, simply say that this abortion issue is not important to you and stop trying to ease your guilt.

**What ways did they use to ease their guilt? What has this to do with my post? Oh, you seem to think I am in this group as well? Perhaps…but certainly not from what i have said. **

It is ok to be against the war, the social issues are hugely important to all of us and it is our individual duty to do everything we can.

Abortion is murder and when you try to make it anything else or lump it with anything else, you are just trying to fool yourselves, you fool no one else.

**I’m not attempting to fool anyone. The vatican has stated that all life issues are considered within one whole. **

If you support pro abort candidates, I don’t know how you can call yourself pro life.

**I have no idea why you think I did. **

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Probably because abortion and “gay marriage” are always evil. The other things you mention are not always evil.

Yes we can parse things as we think they should be no doubt.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

What do you consider to be the Ultra right?

**Basically those who think the Church would have been better off had Vatican II never happened. Those that seem to think the Church isn’t conservative enough, actually calling the USCCB heretical, or that recent Popes are wrong on certain doctrine or not aware of it. That would be my take. I used to think of them as evangelicals, but I’m informed by evangelicals that this is a severe minority and not how mainstream evangelicals think. **

If you look through all of the posts on Catholic answers, I don’t think you will find one post that is gleefully supportive of war and capital punishment. Gross exaggeration.

**I made no assertion that anyone on this forum made such a statement. So it would be unwise to claim it as an exaggeration when you might be unfamiliar with the source of my statement. **

I think you are very mistaken to think that Catholics who are truly pro life do not care about the other very important issues.

**I didn’t say they didn’t care. It would be wise when characterizinig another’s post, you do so accurately. I said that Catholics don’t show the same zeal on other social issues as they do with abortion and gay rights. This is the complaint heard by a significant number of workers in social issues field. People are much less unwilling to work for grassroots poverty issues than they are to march for right-to-life issues. Yet, to be convincing these issues in part drive abortion and need to be addressed if people are going to seriously change their views. **

Personally, I do find it much harder to believe the politicians who have sold their soul to the devil on abortion than those that are against it.

**My only point is that of course it sounds nice. They just never actually DO anything. As one Jewish “think tank” person said on Bill Moyers the other night on the issue of Evangelicals and Pro_israel stances, The evangelicals have no where else to go. The GOP promises them, gets their votes, then ignores them. If you choose to rely on that…its of course your choice. **

 

[melensdad]

If you support pro abort candidates, I don’t know how you can call yourself pro life.

Agreed. You cannot support pro-abortion politicians and be claim to be pro-life.

The church is clear on the life issues. The church is clear on social issues. The church clearly indicates that life issues are not negotiable issues and rank above social issues. Those who attempt to claim social issues are as important as life issues are practicing moral relativism, which the church also teaches is wrong.

 

[Holly3278]

The dictionary defines pro-life in this way:

pro-life (prhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gif-lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/imacr.giffhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)
adj. Advocating full legal protection of human embryos or fetuses, especially by opposing legalized abortion.

I define pro-life as being against abortion, euthanasia, the death penalty, and in-vitro fertilisation.

 

[melensdad]

The dictionary defines pro-life in this way:

pro-life (prhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gif-lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/imacr.giffhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)
adj. Advocating full legal protection of human embryos or fetuses, especially by opposing legalized abortion.

I define pro-life as being against abortion, euthanasia, the death penalty, and in-vitro fertilisation.

Are you willing to add human cloning and gay marriage to your definition? Because the Church seems to consider those to be life issues as well.

While I oppose the death penalty, as I gather you do, it is not considered a ‘life’ issue by the Church and it is allowed according to the Catechism (although it should be used only when necessary and that is very rare according to the Church)

 

[mark_a]

This is just my opinion, but I think the term “pro-life” should include the term “open-to-life” from the Catholic perspective.

Pro-life folks sometimes only seem to worry about violent abortion done by abortion clinics, not what they potentially do to their own unborn with abortifacients since the abortion is done only to microscopic babies in the privacy of their own bodies.

 

[fix]

Yes we can parse things as we think they should be no doubt.

They are parsed as they ought to be parsed. Lumping everything together as in equal weight would be wrong.