Definition of Virgin?

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I think there needs to be a distinction made between “sex” and “intercourse.” Sexual intercourse.

You can engage in sexual activity - and technically still remain a virgin.

You cannot engage in sexual INTERCOURSE and remain a virgin.

Bill Clinton is famous for his manipulation of the word “sex.”
He attempted to use it as referring only to “intercourse” thereby allowing him to lie and claim he “never had SEX with that woman.”

Of course he did.

He just didn’t clarify it. Purposely.

Sex is not always intercourse.

But intercourse is always sex.😊
 
LovedForever said:
You can engage in sexual activity - and technically still remain a virgin.
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Why has no one read the New Advent Article I posted???

:banghead:
%between%

Everyone please read:
There are two elements in virginity: the material element, that is to say, the absence, in the past and in the present, of all complete and voluntary delectation, whether from lust or from the lawful use of marriage; and the formal element, that is the firm resolution to abstain forever from sexual pleasure.
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newadvent.org/cathen/15458a.htm
 
This perfect integrity of body, enhanced by a purpose of perpetual chastity, produces a special likeness to Christ, and creates a title to one of the three “aureolæ”, which theologians mention. According to the teaching of St. Thomas (Supplement, 96) these “aureolæ” are particular rewards added to the essential happiness of eternity, and are like so many laurel wreaths, crowning three conspicuous victories, and three special points of resemblance to Christ: the victory over the flesh in virginity, the victory over the world in martyrdom, and the victory over the devil in the preaching of the truth. The text of St. John (Revelation 14:1-5) is often understood of virgins, and the canticle which they alone may sing before the throne denotes the “aureola” which is given to them alone. It is most probable that the words in the fourth verse, “These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins”, are really spoken of virgins, though there are also other interpretations; perhaps, those who "were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb: And in their mouth there was found no lie: (loc. cit., 4, 5) are the martyrs; they are declared to be without spot, as in an earlier chapter (vii, 14); they are said to “have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb”.
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In the article NUNS it is shown how Christian virgins have been one of the glories of the Church since the first ages, and how very ancient is the profession of virginity. Under RELIGIOUS LIFE is treated the difficulty of proving the strict obligation of perseverance before the fifth century, when we meet with the letter of Innocent V (404) to Vitricius (chapters xiii, xiv; cf. P.L., XX, 478 sqq.). Even at an earlier period still, the bishop presided at the clothing, and the consecration of virgins became a sacramental rite, in which the prayers and benedictions of the Church were added to the prayers and merits of those who presented themselves, in order to obtain for them the grace of fidelity in their sublime profession. In the fourth century no age was fixed for the consecration; virgins offered themselves quite young, at ten or twelve years of age. As there were children offered by their parents to the monastic life, so also there were children vowed to virginity before their birth, or very shortly after. Subsequently the law was passed which forbade consecration before the age of twenty-five years.
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The ceremony prescribed in the Roman Pontifical is very solemn, and follows, step by step, that of an ordination. It is reserved to the bishop, and can never be repeated. The days fixed for the solemnity were at first the Epiphany, Easter week, and the feasts of the Apostles. The third Council of the Lateran gave permission to consecrate virgins on all Sundays, and custom sometimes extended the permission (C. Subdiaconos, 1, De temp. ordinat., 1, 10). The ceremony takes place during Mass; the archpriest certifies the worthiness of the candidates, as he does that of the deacons. After the introductory hymns, the pontiff first asks them all together if they are resolved to persevere in their purpose of holy virginity; they answer: “Volumus” (we are). Then he asks each on severally: “Dost thou promise to preserve perpetual virginity”? and when she answers, “I do promise”, the pontiff says, “Deo gratias”. The litany of the saints is then sung, with a double invocation on behalf of the virgins present: “Ut præsentes ancillas benedicere … sanctificare digneris” (“That though wouldst vouchsafe to bless and sanctify thy handmaidens here present”). It is to be remarked that the third invocation, “et consecrare digneris” (“That Thou wouldst vouchsafe to consecrate them”), which is added for major orders, is ommitted here. The hymn “Veni Creator” follows, after which the pontiff blesses the habits, which the virgins put on. He then blesses the veil, the ring, and the crown. After the singing of a very beautiful preface, the bishop gives three articles to the virgins with the formulæ used in ordinations, and the ceremony ends with a benediction, some prayers, and a long anathema directed against any persons who attempt to seduce the virgins from their holy profession. Sometimes after the Mass, the bishop gave them, as also to the deaconesses, the Book of Hours, to recite the Office.
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From the fourth century the virgins wore a modest dress of dark colour; they were required to devote themselves to prayer (the canonical hours), manual labour, and an ascetic life. After the eighth century, as enclosure became the general law for persons consecrated to God, the reason for this special consecration of persons, already protected by the walls of the monastery and by their religious profession, ceased to exist. Secret faults committed before or even after admission to the monastery led to questions which were very delicate to decide, and which became the subject of controversy. Was one who had lost her virginity to make the fact known at the price of her reputation? Was it enough to present herself as a virgin in order to be able to receive consecration? (See for example “Theol. moralis Salmaticensium”, Q. xvi de 6 et 9 præcepto, i, n. 75; or Lessius, De justitia", etc., IV, ii, dub. 16.) The ceremony became more and more rare, though examples were found still in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries; but it was not practiced in the Mendicant orders. Saint Antoninus knew it in the fifteenth century; while St. Charles Borromeo in vain tried to revive it in the sixteenth. The abbess alone received and still receives a solemn benediction.
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Virginity is irreparably lost by sexual pleasure, voluntarily and completely experienced. “I tell you without hesitation”, writes St. Jerome in his twenty-second Epistole to St. Eustochium, n. 5 (P.L., XXII, 397) “that though God is almighty, He cannot restore a virginity that has been lost.” A failure in the resolution, or even incomplete faults, leave room for efficacious repentance, which restores virtue and the right to the aureola. Formerly virginity was required as a condition for entrance into some monasteries; at the present day, in most congregations, a pontifical dispensation is necessary for the reception of persons who have been married (the Order of the Visitation however is formally open to widows); but bodily integrity is no longer required. If the candidate’s reputation is intact, the doors of monasteries are open to a generous repentance as to a generous innocence. (See NUNS; RELIGIOUS LIFE; VOWS; RELIGIOUS VEIL.)
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My feel on this is no. The girl is still a virgin.

With respect to New Advent and Stella, New Advent may have their explination, but they are not a Church authority.
As they have theirs, I have my opinion.

Virgin is linked with penetration. Not neceserrily penal, but the breaking of the hymen membrane, that is no longer being a virgin.

There is a difference between being a virgin and being sexually immoral and committing mortal sin.

The Church speaks of consecrated celebates, people who choose to remain celebate.

Virgin is only used to describe Marty, who had never had intercourse…and also the virginal birth, Jesus most probably did not pass through the birth canal…hance Marty’s perpetual virginity.

I forget which saint…maybe St. Catherine, but I stand corrected,had a vision to prove the perpetual virginity of Marty, she saw Jesus being born…there was a bright light and Jesus came to rest in Mary’s arms…He was not born like you and I.
 
Timidity said:
Why? There surely must be a Church definition if the Church has Consecrated Virgins.
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Hopefully a Consecrated Virgin would never have been alone with a man (other than in the Confessional, with the screen in the “closed” position); thus, wouldn’t have to worry about technical definitions of virginity. 😉
 
The New Advent article explains the difference between moral and physical virginity. For example, if physical virginity were taken away by rape, the woman would still be considered a moral virgin. And therefore still a “virgin.”

The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary proclaims that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ. Physically and morally. This is important because she is Christ’s perfect disciple, as He was also a virgin. I have heard of another vision of Christ’s birth being like that of a dew drop forming on a blade of grass. Her physical virginity was preserved so that her body could reflect her perfect example of Christ.

But in the girl mentioned in the OP’s case, her physical virginity may still be intact, but her moral virginity of experiencing sexual pleasure is not- and therefore she is no longer a virgin.
 
The main question is whether participating in oral sex makes someone no longer a virgin. (Specifically, I’m talking about cunnilingus.)

I vote no. Sexual contact is sexual contact, whether it’s oral or any other form.
 
Sandi said:
The main question is whether participating in oral sex makes someone no longer a virgin. (Specifically, I’m talking about cunnilingus.)

I vote no. Sexual contact is sexual contact, whether it’s oral or any other form.
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Ok then - does that mean all males who have masturbated cannot be considered a virgin either?

Virginity has always meant and been understood to mean - never having had sexual intercourse. Period.

Yes - there is I suppose what you could call “spiritual virginity” - but that is so rare to obtain it is in the realm of saints who, by a special grace from God, have remained pure both physically and spiritually.
But for all intents and purposes, “virginity” is and always has been understood to refer to sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. Not a level of “purity.” For there would be only the rare “virgin” on earth if that were the case!:eek:
 
LovedForever said:
Ok then - does that mean all males who have masturbated cannot be considered a virgin either?

Virginity has always meant and been understood to mean - never having had sexual intercourse. Period.

Yes - there is I suppose what you could call “spiritual virginity” - but that is so rare to obtain it is in the realm of saints who, by a special grace from God, have remained pure both physically and spiritually.
But for all intents and purposes, “virginity” is and always has been understood to refer to sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. Not a level of “purity.” For there would be only the rare “virgin” on earth if that were the case!:eek:
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Just because Virginity has often been misunderstood to mean never having had sexual intercourse, that does not mean we should continue to misunderstand the word’s meaning.

Today sexuality has turned down a dark path with more tolerance for promiscuoity, homosexuality, abortion, divorce. Kids especially are engaging in dangerous sexual activity and thinking that they are safe because they are “virgins.”

In the words of Pam Stenzel, famous abstinence educator, “Kids are yelling out to each other, ‘I’m a VIRGIN!’ and they are infecting each other like wild-fire.” This incorrect defenition of virgin is hurting a lot of young people.

I have a question for you LovedForever- if a gay person has sex 100 times with someone of the same gender, but never has “sexual intercourse between a man and a woman” (your words), than does that mean that he or she is still a virgin?

And for you to say that virginity has to fit into that narrow defenition because if not, “there would be only the rare ‘virgin’ on earth if that were the case,” is not a good arguement. Because in reality true virginity is rare. Men who masturbate and experience climax before marriage, take away something very special on their wedding night. And through repentance and confession, God can heal the wounds of sexual sin and restore a pure foundation for marriage (thank God!).

I have another example to illustrate my point and I pray that no one takes offense at this. But back to your point of “the rare virgin.” Think of the most famous virgins in history- Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. Now take Mary, Our Blessed Mother, who never once committed a sin. The Catholic Church professes that she remained “Ever-Virgin.” If after the birth of Jesus, she slept with St. Joseph, that would not have been a sin because they were married, but the Church proclaims that this did not take place. Now imagine for a moment, that Our Lady and St. Joseph did not have sexual intercourse (as to perserve Our Lady’s Perpetual Virginity) but they did engage in other sexual behaviors that for them would not constitute as sin because they were married. I am sorry if I have offended anyone by bringing this example up but I think it illustrates my point completely that virginity is about describing a state of purity that describes no previous sexual activity, and for consecrated virgins (like Our Lady and St. Joseph)- no future sexual activity.

The good news is that through God’s mercy purity can be restored! I once heard an abstinence speaker say, “Don’t pray for your future spouse to be a virgin at your wedding, pray that they will be pure.”
 
litllulu said:
Yes I think she would still be a virgin.

I don’t advocate oral sex but by all practical means she is a Virgin if she has not had Penal to Vaginal penetration!
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I agree. Loss of virginity occurs with and only with sexual intercourse.
 
It sounds to me like the OP is trying to justify something he/she knows is wrong.
Kathy
 
Katie1723 said:
It sounds to me like the OP is trying to justify something he/she knows is wrong.
Kathy
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Like what? A person who had sexual relations, but not sex, is still a virgin. Can they say they are completely chaste, no, but they are a virgin. Knowing what is wrong doesn’t havee anything to do with if you are a virgin or not.
 
I believe that in most cultures a virgin is technically a female with an intact hymen.
 
rwoehmke said:
I believe that in most cultures a virgin is technically a female with an intact hymen.
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And if a girl is born whithout one? Some people are not born with one. and they also don’t all look the same. Also, what about non-sexual things that can damage it? You can’t say that someone is no longer a virgin if she chooses to use a menstrual cup and it happens to stretch/tear her hymen.
 
Fidelia said:
And if a girl is born whithout one? Some people are not born with one. and they also don’t all look the same. Also, what about non-sexual things that can damage it? You can’t say that someone is no longer a virgin if she chooses to use a menstrual cup and it happens to stretch/tear her hymen.
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Sorry to have to tell you but there are cultures in this world where if the hymen is not intact, the woman is not considered a virgin, no matter how she lost it. In the West we are a little more understanding, but we are only part of the world.
 
rwoehmke said:
Sorry to have to tell you but there are cultures in this world where if the hymen is not intact, the woman is not considered a virgin, no matter how she lost it. In the West we are a little more understanding, but we are only part of the world.
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I am well aware of that. My point was that we cannot apply that reasoning in our culture.
 
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