Definition of "Work" as related to salvation...

[JRKH]

I have seen and participated in a number of threads here relating to the necessity/need/usefullness of “Works” as it relates to Salvation.
What I have noted in the better discussions is that Catholic and Non-Catholic Christians reach a point of “talking past each other” on the relative importance of works/faith in salvation.

This has led me to the idea that perhaps we need to have a better understanding of the term “Works” from both the Catholic and Non-Catholic Perspectives.

For myself, I must say that I find works to be basically inseperable from Fath in the Salvic journey. Even the idea of asking God into my heart is a form of work in the sense that I am taking a step toward God and not simply expecting Him to come and get me.
Others may not consider this “act” to be a “Work”. Thus I want to put out the idea and ask others to give examples of what they would consider “Works” for the purpose of discussing the concept of the so-called “Works Salvation”.

As a definition, I would have to say that Actions taken for the pure Love of God and the following of Jesus Example and command (as in love God and neighbor, or acting as a good samaritan) are works that are defining of a True Follower of Christ and are necessary to demonstrate our commitment to each other and to further the salvation of our fellow man. In addition these actions (Works) answer God’s call to Grace and Holiness and bring us closer to that perfection to which we are called.
Actions taken to “Get us to heaven”, in other words for selfish reasons, are not works that demonstrate our true discipleship and therefore are worthless.
Of course the above assumes one is already a professed Christian.

My hope is that this will help us all to better understand each other’s thinking and definitions and thus further a better understanding of our respective positions on the subject of Faith and works in salvation.

Please try to stay with the idea of defining what is or is not a work and not whether works are necessary. There are many threads where this has already been discussed.

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

=JRKH;4404570]I have seen and participated in a number of threads here relating to the necessity/need/usefullness of “Works” as it relates to Salvation.
What I have noted in the better discussions is that Catholic and Non-Catholic Christians reach a point of “talking past each other” on the relative importance of works/faith in salvation.

James, I quite agree with this.

For myself, I must say that I find works to be basically inseperable from Fath in the Salvic journey. Even the idea of asking God into my heart is a form of work in the sense that I am taking a step toward God and not simply expecting Him to come and get me.
Others may not consider this “act” to be a “Work”. Thus I want to put out the idea and ask others to give examples of what they would consider “Works” for the purpose of discussing the concept of the so-called “Works Salvation”.

In the first part, a agree with this, as well, that works, as evidence of my justification and as part of my sanctification, are necessary and inseparable from salvation.
The idea of “asking God into my heart” is a work that I cannot do on my own. It is a result of grace, since I am a slave to sin and cannot free myself.

As a definition, I would have to say that Actions taken for the pure Love of God and the following of Jesus Example and command (as in love God and neighbor, or acting as a good samaritan) are works that are defining of a True Follower of Christ and are necessary to demonstrate our commitment to each other and to further the salvation of our fellow man. In addition these actions (Works) answer God’s call to Grace and Holiness and bring us closer to that perfection to which we are called.
Actions taken to “Get us to heaven”, in other words for selfish reasons, are not works that demonstrate our true discipleship and therefore are worthless.

In other words, the works that I perform, good in the eys of God, are actually that of the Holy Spirit does through me, that not only benefit me (because they are His), but must also benefit others. Robert Sungenis uses a term, “repsonsible reception”, which I like very much as a Lutheran. Lutherans tend to see our role in justification as somewhat passive, we receive the Holy Spirit which makes it possible to have justifying faith. But we must receive grace responsibly, allowing the HS to work through us to do His good works. (Hopefully, I have understood and relayed his idea properly, but that’s what I take from it.)
To fail to do so means our faith is a dead faith, and therefore not only is sanctification not taking place, but our justification is in doubt.

My hope is that this will help us all to better understand each other’s thinking and definitions and thus further a better understanding of our respective positions on the subject of Faith and works in salvation.

For me, good works are those things which are indicative of His grace and commands.

Jon

PS See my sig.

 

[NDfan]

James I actually think you did a great job and agree 100%.

The problem that most people have with saying works are required is then well how many. How many old people do you have to help across the street before you hit the quota required to go to Heaven.

Taking that point of view cheapens for lack of a better word the wonderful works that GOD accompishes through us. I find Ephesians most interesting with this topic:

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

So scripture first tells us that salvation is not the result of works, but then tells us that we do good works that GOD planned for us once we believe. So I wouldn’t be too concerned with defining what a work is because it could be anything that we are called to do. Rejecting GOD’s call to do good works is a rejection of Christ to me. Rejecting Christ of course cannot lead to salvation. It leads away from it. So as you stated very well, works are part of faith. The two go hand in hand. We perform good works because we have Faith.

But to directly answer your question of what is a work. It could be anything. Accepting Christ is a work. Reading scripture is a work. Helping the poor is a work. etc. etc.

PEACE and Blessings

 

[Henning]

Thus I want to put out the idea and ask others to give examples of what they would consider “Works” for the purpose of discussing the concept of the so-called “Works Salvation”.

James

I think even faith/belief is a work (?)

John 6:29 “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the **work **of God, that ye **believe **on him whom he hath sent.”

 

[Steadfast]

Wrinkle:

When Paul uses the expression “works” it is not always clear whether he is referring to “works of the law” (circumcision, ceremonial, etc) or good works.

Usually he seems to be referring to the former.

The wrinkle comes when we relate this to the Reformation insistence on Justification by faith alone apart form works since the works the reformers were talking about were, as often as not, the medieval corollaries to Paul’s reference.

To put it another way, the reformers were saying:

Paul says we are justified by faith apart form works of the law which is, by analogy, tantamount to saying that we are justified by faith apart from church ceremonies, rituals and “sacraments”.

The idea that we can be made right, or declared righteous in God’s sight apart from good works (like giving alms, caring for the sick etc.) is not really at issue since they presuppose that these acts only have religious meaning and value as they derive from the faith in which they are worked.

Questions of merit (condign and otherwise) come from more strictly scholastic considerations.

 

[JRKH]

Sorry I haven’t been able to respond - been a tough couple of Days.
God is with us and today is Good. - Praise God in all things.

Thanks to everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut - Good stuff.
ND fan - You brought up a great point about how placing too much emphasis on works can cheapen them. Couldn’t agree more.

Steadfast - Yes, when reading Paul it is easy to confuse the issue of works of Law and good works. It seems this is much of the problem when we get into these discussions.
Also, I agree with you comment about the idea of merit being of a more scolastic consideration. I hadn’t thought of it in that way. This frames the issue in somewhat the same way as “predestination” or OSAS type discussions. While these things can be discussed academically they really can have little direct effect on our lives and ministries as Christians.

In other words, we can argue the points of -
whether and how and why works relate to -
faith and grace and belief in salvation, -
but in the simple and real world of Christian living -
we can only be sure that God expects and even commands -
that we perform good works if we are to truly be His followers.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

(Snip)
The idea of “asking God into my heart” is a work that I cannot do on my own. It is a result of grace, since I am a slave to sin and cannot free myself.

This is an interesting and revealing statement. While I understand your intent, I don’t entirely agree. Certainly I can Ask God into my heart, however the question becomes whether I am properly disposed to accepting God into my heart. Thus the delicate interplay of God’s Grace and our receptivity to that Grace becomes a determining factor.

In other words, the works that I perform, good in the eys of God, are actually that of the Holy Spirit does through me, that not only benefit me (because they are His), but must also benefit others. Robert Sungenis uses a term, “repsonsible reception”, which I like very much as a Lutheran. Lutherans tend to see our role in justification as somewhat passive, we receive the Holy Spirit which makes it possible to have justifying faith. But we must receive grace responsibly, allowing the HS to work through us to do His good works. (Hopefully, I have understood and relayed his idea properly, but that’s what I take from it.)

I think you did a good job relating.
I would like to point out that Jesus never really taught that we have a passive role in salvation. Much of His teaching involved action on our part. I point to one of His oft repeated phrases after a miracle - “Your faith has saved you”, or words to this effect.
He did not say the faith God gave you, but YOUR faith. This to me really points up need for participation by us, imperfect as we are. Then God can work to perfect us as Christ taught we must become.
Once we get to discussing the when, why and how of the grace and works relationship we’re really kind of splitting hairs don’t you think?
Lastly I like that term “Responsible reception”. I think it really speaks to that interplay between our imperfect will striving toward God and God’s Perfect Love reaching toward us.

To fail to do so means our faith is a dead faith, and therefore not only is sanctification not taking place, but our justification is in doubt.

For me, good works are those things which are indicative of His grace and commands.

Jon

I think this is a very clear and correct statement. I don’t think that any catholic would really find fault with this.

James

 

[Ruthie]

but in the simple and real world of Christian living -
we can only be sure that God expects and even commands -
that we perform good works if we are to truly be His followers.

Yes. I also agree with much of Jon’s excellent post.

“Faith without works is dead.” I think “dead” means we are standing in the way of the Holy Spirit.

I think that “good works” means getting out of the HS’s way, so that He can work through us. Sometimes that’s pretty hard!

I remember once discussing faith with someone, and saying that my sins were my own, but my good deeds were God working through me. He responded, “You must have really low self-esteem!” How little he knew!

I think a “work” is anything that proclaims God’s love - and righteousness - to the world. That runs all the way from personal things like having faith and praying, all the way up to being martyred for Jesus Christ. I also think different people are called to different works.

“That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.”

God bless all of us,

Ruthie

 

[JonNC]

=JRKH;4413119]This is an interesting and revealing statement. While I understand your intent, I don’t entirely agree. Certainly I can Ask God into my heart, however the question becomes whether I am properly disposed to accepting God into my heart. Thus the delicate interplay of God’s Grace and our receptivity to that Grace becomes a determining factor.

Hi James,
I guess what I’m trying to say. probably poorly, is that it is the Holy Spirit that properly disposes my heart to receive/accept God.
That is the passive part. At that point, I can certainly reject or receive the Spirit - free will.

I think you did a good job relating.
I would like to point out that Jesus never really taught that we have a passive role in salvation. Much of His teaching involved action on our part. I point to one of His oft repeated phrases after a miracle - “Your faith has saved you”, or words to this effect.
He did not say the faith God gave you, but YOUR faith. This to me really points up need for participation by us, imperfect as we are. Then God can work to perfect us as Christ taught we must become.

Maybe this speaks to our slightly different perceptions of justification and sanctification. While in justification, the Lutheran may be passive to a degree, he should certainly not be in relation to his sanctification. My role must become much more active in my growth in grace. I actively seek out word and sacrament, and I include confession and absolution in this way as a sacrament, and I actively seek out, led by the HS, ways to do His good works that are in me.

Once we get to discussing the when, why and how of the grace and works relationship we’re really kind of splitting hairs don’t you think?

I really do, too. That above referenced difference in perception of the roles of justification and sanctification sometimes seems a small hair to split, even though it was the big hair 500 years ago.

Lastly I like that term “Responsible reception”. I think it really speaks to that interplay between our imperfect will striving toward God and God’s Perfect Love reaching toward us

Wish I’d have said it that way.

I think this is a very clear and correct statement. I don’t think that any catholic would really find fault with this.

Thank you. I agree. And it is through these kinds of agreements that we as Lutherans and Catholics can move closer to unity. What a positive and uplifting thread! (Boy, did I need it after another recent thread)

Jon

PS

Sorry I haven’t been able to respond - been a tough couple of Days.
God is with us and today is Good. - Praise God in all things.

If my memory serves from another thread, you have a family member, perhaps your wife, who is ill. If my memory is right, I pray God’s peace and healing.

 

[JRKH]

Hi James,
I guess what I’m trying to say. probably poorly, is that it is the Holy Spirit that properly disposes my heart to receive/accept God.
That is the passive part. At that point, I can certainly reject or receive the Spirit - free will.

Maybe this speaks to our slightly different perceptions of justification and sanctification. While in justification, the Lutheran may be passive to a degree, he should certainly not be in relation to his sanctification. My role must become much more active in my growth in grace. I actively seek out word and sacrament, and I include confession and absolution in this way as a sacrament, and I actively seek out, led by the HS, ways to do His good works that are in me.

I really do, too. That above referenced difference in perception of the roles of justification and sanctification sometimes seems a small hair to split, even though it was the big hair 500 years ago.

Wish I’d have said it that way.

Thank you. I agree. And it is through these kinds of agreements that we as Lutherans and Catholics can move closer to unity. What a positive and uplifting thread! (Boy, did I need it after another recent thread)

Jon

PS

If my memory serves from another thread, you have a family member, perhaps your wife, who is ill. If my memory is right, I pray God’s peace and healing.

Jon,
Thanks for the wonderful reply and prayers. Yes it is my Dear Wife who is ill - Alzheimers - It is a passion to be sure. Please Pray for God’s will in our lives, and that we have the strength to accept His will.

As to the responses above. They are wonderful. It just goes to show that when we get past all the terminology etc we see things nearly identically. Thus it isn’t really a problem of belief, but rather a problem of trying to express God’s perfect Will and Action in our Lives by using Imperfect Human Language.

I hope others who take a look at this thread will also agree and take that feeling into other threads.

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

James,
Today’s Gospel reading was Mt 25:14-30,

Jesus told his disciples this parable:
"A man going on a journey
called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them.
To one he gave five talents; to another, two; to a third, one–
to each according to his ability.
Then he went away.
Immediately the one who received five talents went and traded with them,
and made another five.
Likewise, the one who received two made another two.
But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground
and buried his master’s money.

After a long time
the master of those servants came back
and settled accounts with them.
The one who had received five talents came forward
bringing the additional five.
He said, 'Master, you gave me five talents.
See, I have made five more.’
His master said to him, 'Well done, my good and faithful servant.
Since you were faithful in small matters,
I will give you great responsibilities.
Come, share your master’s joy.’
Then the one who had received two talents also came forward and said,
‘Master, you gave me two talents.
See, I have made two more.’
His master said to him, 'Well done, my good and faithful servant.
Since you were faithful in small matters,
I will give you great responsibilities.
Come, share your master’s joy.’
Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said,
‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person,
harvesting where you did not plant
and gathering where you did not scatter;
so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground.
Here it is back.’
His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant!
So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant
and gather where I did not scatter?
Should you not then have put my money in the bank
so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?
Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten.
For to everyone who has,
more will be given and he will grow rich;
but from the one who has not,
even what he has will be taken away.
And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside,
where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’"

During the reading I was reminded of our conversation here. It seems all three servants (entrusted with the masters possessions) could be said to have been justified. The first 2 actively sought to grow by taking what had been entrusted to them and doing “good works” (sanctification). The third, instead, not only chose not to grow, but actually buried what had been untrusted to him and insulted his master upon the master’s return, therefore he not only chooses not to actively grow (sanctification), but in fact rejects his master (justification), and as a result he was thrown into the darkness.

What’s your take on the reading, and how it relates, if at all, to our discussion of the importance of work?

Jon

 

[JRKH]

James,
Today’s Gospel reading was Mt 25:14-30,

During the reading I was reminded of our conversation here. It seems all three servants (entrusted with the masters possessions) could be said to have been justified. The first 2 actively sought to grow by taking what had been entrusted to them and doing “good works” (sanctification). The third, instead, not only chose not to grow, but actually buried what had been untrusted to him and insulted his master upon the master’s return, therefore he not only chooses not to actively grow (sanctification), but in fact rejects his master (justification), and as a result he was thrown into the darkness.

What’s your take on the reading, and how it relates, if at all, to our discussion of the importance of work?

Jon

I think that this is a very fine take on the Gospel today although I don’t think I would read as much “rejection of the master” into it. That being said, it fits very well and gives a good sense about how the two (grace and works) operate.

I think we can take this story and “adapt” it a little. Tell me what you think of this. (WARNING: Possible hair splitting here )
A servant, who has never had any talents in the past, comes to the Master and asks to be given some to invest for the Master. Since he has never been given talents (justification) will the Master give him any simply because he asks?

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

I think that this is a very fine take on the Gospel today although I don’t think I would read as much “rejection of the master” into it. That being said, it fits very well and gives a good sense about how the two (grace and works) operate.

I think we can take this story and “adapt” it a little. Tell me what you think of this. (WARNING: Possible hair splitting here )
A servant, who has never had any talents in the past, comes to the Master and asks to be given some to invest for the Master. Since he has never been given talents (justification) will the Master give him any simply because he asks?

Peace
James

A split hair back at you :
I think a servant (nice way to say slave), would not dare ask for it, save the master offers. But for the sake of dialogue, if he did, the master would grant it because of his faith in the master, not for anything he did. But from there one, once granted the talents (justification), he must of necessity work the will of his master (sanctification).

But what is the difference in the end? None that I can see.
We are justified by grace through faith, AND faith without works is dead. Both are true, regardless of are perception of the relationship justification and sanctification.

Jon

 

[JRKH]

A split hair back at you :
I think a servant (nice way to say slave), would not dare ask for it, save the master offers. But for the sake of dialogue, if he did, the master would grant it because of his faith in the master, not for anything he did. But from there one, once granted the talents (justification), he must of necessity work the will of his master (sanctification).

It’s great to split hairs with someone who has such a good perspecitve on the subject and understands that we don’t what to “What if” ourselves all over the place.
Natually in any such parable we can take many different directions. This is why our respective religions wind up with Catachisms and various other documents trying to explain, basically simple, things. To me it is always this idea of humans complicating simple things by constantly asking, “yes but what if…”.

We agree that the Master would, in all likelihood, grant the request. Of course it is always the Master’s option one way or the other. Also we must recognize that the person requesting must first of all be a servant of the Master (Christan) and thus already have been granted some graces. Thus it may be that the servant (slave) might be bold enough to ask. Never the less we are left once again with that necessary interplay between God and man, grace and work.

I start thinking of other variations, but cannot put them clearly into words right now.

But what is the difference in the end? None that I can see.
We are justified by grace through faith, AND faith without works is dead. Both are true, regardless of are perception of the relationship justification and sanctification.

Jon

Couldn’t agree more.
Someone a while back asked a question about how catholics interpreted one verse in light of another verse. I told her that we do it by looking at the sum of Christ’s teaching and not by trying to disect every verse independently. Thus, intead of pitting, or instance, Paul’s teachings on Faith VS. James’ teaching that, “faith without works is dead”, it is necessary to understand the two things TOGETHER and in context of what the Gospels teach.
When we do this we find, as we have here, that the similarities are far greater than the differences.

It is always a pleasure to find such great similarities rather than differences.
Some of the arguments on here really get to seeming like Scribes arguing with Pharasees arguing with Lawyers etc…
And by the way, I think I know the thread you refered to earlier. I looked in on it but it really has become a pointless exersize.

Peace
James