Definitive Roman Catholic positions

[Matt14]

Bob Rowland:

I would suggest that you read the documents of the doctrinal Council of Trent,The Faith of Millions that may now be hard to find, and the Baltimore Catechism. I will have more specific information next Monday after I verify it on the weekend.

Thanks Bob. Someone gave me a link to s site that has all the councils on it. The Council of Trent is on there. I hope to read them all, though I’m trying to read the CCC first. I look forward to further suggestions from you.

 

[mercygate]

Matt14:

A little, thanks! But what I’m really interested in is core doctrine.

I sorta assumed that a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would pretty much define what is believed and taught. However, one catholic told me that the CCC was open to interpretation.

I’m feeling a little confused on what is definitive, I guess. Do you considere the CCC definitive?

From the Apostolic Constitution, Fidei *Depositum , *by JP-2, announcing the publication of the *Catechism *(it’s published in the forematter of the book):

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

 

[Brendan]

Matt14:

However, one catholic told me that the CCC was open to interpretation.

The application of certain doctrines are a matter of recognized, legimate debate. such as the Church Doctrine on Captial Punishment.

The Church discourages the death penalty, but allows for it in certain,very rare, circumstances. The actual appliction of the death penalty to a specific criminal can therefore be legitimatly debated.

The doctrine itself is definitive (Council of Trent)

I’m feeling a little confused on what is definitive, I guess. Do you considere the CCC definitive?

The CCC is an excellent description of doctrine that is otherwise articulated in the Documents of the Ecumenical Councils and in Papal Encyclicals.

I highly doubt that any Catholic here would disagree with what is stated in the CCC

 

[Matt14]

mercygate:

From the Apostolic Constitution, Fidei *Depositum , *by JP-2, announcing the publication of the *Catechism *(it’s published in the forematter of the book):

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

Excellent. Good to know!

 

[Matt14]

Brendan:

The CCC is an excellent description of doctrine that is otherwise articulated in the Documents of the Ecumenical Councils and in Papal Encyclicals.

I highly doubt that any Catholic here would disagree with what is stated in the CCC

Great, that’s really what I wanted to know, basically. Thank you for your help.

 

[TNT]

Matt14:

…what I’m really interested in is core doctrine.

I sorta assumed that a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would pretty much define what is believed and taught. However, **one catholic told me **that the CCC was open to interpretation.

I’m feeling a little confused on what is definitive, I guess. **Do you consider the CCC definitive?
** -

1. In order to address the “CORE” doctrine one would go back to the Athanasius Creed (=“We Believe”) and the Nicene Creed. They both expound the Apostles Creed of the early 2nd Century. All of them are at that site. The Apostles Creed is still said today as the introductory Prayer of the Rosary.
   The Nicene Creed is an essential part of the Sunday Worship throughout the world.
2. “One catholic told me” means nothing. Ex: “One COC member” in otherwise good standing said that miracles still occur. Another told me that it’s OK to believe that the communion bread is really the body of Christ.
3. The Recent CCC of 1994 is a compendium of both belief and common opinion (example: the death penalty, or the Primary purpose of marriage). You must understand that this version had in mind not only the Catholic Faithful, but all those outside the Catholic Church as well. Whereas the prior Catechisms were primarily for Catholics or those entering the Church as converts. So, the older Catechisms are “non-ecumenical” in the modern sense and more dogmatic. They are very straight forward. The example of the** Baltimore Catechism on line** is such an example…about 1891. It was issued to Americans in response to the effects of the Restoration movement, and the “Second Awakening” movement. It was also issued to give a common, solid foundation of teaching in the growing Catholic School system.

There is a host of Sites that teach “core” doctrine and the dogmas that radiate from it.
The following are very extensive:
**Dogmas of the Catholic Church
By CatholicFirst.com

Catholic Teachings From Scripture
By ScriptureCatholic.com

Dogmas of the Faith
This site explains the level of belief requirement…what is “de fide”, “commonly believed”, or “speculative”.

A good book on the “Core” doctrine related to Scripture is
Bible Basics:**** An Introductory Study Guide to the Catholic Faith**

 

[MariaG]

But when it comes to the CCC, I do disagree with the interpretation some non-Catholics (actually some Catholics as well) put on stated beliefs. The Catholic Church may state our beliefs in the most succint manner it can, but it is not responsible for those who misunderstand or do not take as a whole the stated beliefs.

For instance, doctrine about Mary starts first from understanding doctrine about Christ. If someone jumps straight to Marian doctrine, they can become confused.
To understand what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary, you must first understand what they teach about Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mercygate]

One small point about the “definitiveness” of the *Catehism: *It is very short – only about 700 pages. So naturally it is telegraphic. You will not find exhaustive dogmatic treatments in it, just pithy summary statements. Still, it is amazingly concise and accurate despite its brevity

 

[jimmy]

Matt14:

Hi everyone,

I’m new around here. I’m not catholic, and I consider myself a Christian only. I signed up mostly with the intent to ask this one question, but I may stick around a while, if everyone is okay with that.

I’ve had lots of discussions with catholics, and I’ve read even more discussions. Probably the most common complaint I hear from catholics against protestants during these discussions is that the protestant doesn’t really understand catholic doctrine.

Often I’ll see a protestant quote from a catholic source, or cite instances of worship practices, but the catholic will often respond that these sources are not definitive catholic positions.

So, my question is:

If I was going to have a discussion with you, a catholic, what sources would you consider definitive for me to cite in order to "get it right?"

The last thing I want to do is have an incomplete or improper understanding of catholic doctrine when I discuss with catholics. Help me not to be offensive!

in Christ,

Matt14

The Catechism, the code of canon law, the GIRM. The saints are good to quote, but they make mistakes sometimes.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Another site I forgot to add which I should have is earlychristianwritings.com. Definitely a good resource. Check out the writings of St. Augustine of Hippo and St. Thomas Aquanis. The “Confessions” of Augustine and “City of God” is a great resource.

 

[mercygate]

Poor Matt14! He’s going to be buried alive under all these references.

You’re a tiger, Matt!

 

[YinYangMom]

mercygate:

Poor Matt14! He’s going to be buried alive under all these references.

You’re a tiger, Matt!

Oh, but I’ve bookmarked it for my own reference too.
This has been a really informative thread.

 

[Matt14]

mercygate:

Poor Matt14! He’s going to be buried alive under all these references.

You’re a tiger, Matt!

I just wish there were about 48 more hours in a day!

Thanks again everyone for all the good stuff.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Matt14:

Therefore, I’m seeking “official” church positions in writing.

Ah, I see. One thing you should understand is the word “definitive” means something very specific in Catholic lingo. It means that something has been immutably declared to be an article of Divine and Catholic faith. Not all things that are “official” church doctrine are “definitive.” Also, there may be parts of documents that are definitive, but not all parts of that document. For example, the Council of Florence affirmed the canon of Scripture for the Catholic Church. Yet, this was not definitive, meaning that the manner in which it was affirmed did not clearly indicate that the intent was that it was to be an immutable article of Divine and Catholic Faith. The definitive declaration of the canon of Scripture was at the Council of Trent.

Now, what the Council of Florence taught was binding official doctrine for all Catholics, but since it was not definitive, there was the possibility that such a binding declaration could be loosed by the ecclesial authority which was given the power to “bind and loose” by Jesus–that authority being the successor of Peter (the Pope) and the bishops in communion with him.

Here’s a blurb on doctrine and dogma from another discussion that may help …One thing to understand is that the Church does not define the interpretation of Sacred Scritpure verse by verse. The authors never intended their Holy Book to be chopped up and regurgitated in this manner. The Church instead teach[es] the meaning of Scripture as a whole. The Church also insists, as did St. Paul, that we hold fast to the traditions, both oral and written. So, the Church teaches in accord with the traditions, both oral and written, and not by the Protestant epistemology of “Scripture alone,” which the Church finds contrary to both Scripture and Tradition.

Where can you find what the Church teaches? A very good place is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The pope called it a “sure norm of Catholic teaching.” You can find it online, here:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm . There are many footnotes which reference the traditions, both oral and written, which provide the basis of this compendium of [official] Catholic doctrine.

While the Catechism provides a compendium of Catholic doctrine, it is not the source of Catholic doctrine.

The sources of Catholic doctrine are:

1. The Word of God, both oral and written
2. The formal decisions [ie. teachings] of the Church Councils, ratified by the popes [when teaching faith and morals solemnly or by their ordinary teaching authority].
3. The formal decisions [ie. teachings] of the popes [when teaching faith and morals solemnly or by his ordinary teaching authority].

Many Catholic will quote from saints and doctors of the Church. Yet, not every opinion of individuals, even saints and doctors = Catholic doctrine.

There’s a difference between Catholic theology and Catholic doctrine. Theology is the speculative opinions (personal interpretations) of individuals or groups of individuals in the Church, (to include saints and doctors). Such opinions may serve to enlighten our understanding of the Word of God. If these opinions are accepted by the Church and taught as doctrine via the three sources listed above, then they move from speculative opinion (theology) to official Catholic doctrine.

Not all Catholic doctrine is infallible and immutable. Catholic dogma, on the other hand, is infallible and immutable. Dogma differs from doctrine in the manner in which it was presented by the Church from the sources of doctrine listed above.

Doctrine can become Dogma, if over time, the Church when moved by the Holy Spirit, determines that it is prudent to present a teaching definitively. Or, dogma can also develop from doctrine if it becomes manifest that this teaching has been taught everywhere, always, and by all within the Church [cf. St. Vincent de Lerin’s “rule of faith”].Sometimes it takes [a considerable amount of] time before this becomes manifest.