Defrocked priest confronted-See MSN.com web page

[kyleforu]

Today MSN.com is showing a live video feed of a defrocked priest confronted by his abusers no less. I think this priest is paying for his purgatory right now by these people. This is really sad, because it hurts the image of longtime, sincere priests who have kept the faith and been a blessing to the members of a particular parish. But I still can understand the anger of these abused people. There is nothing worse then being sexually defiled by someone you trust. Nothing.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I’m glad you posted this. I had been wanting very much so to comment on this.

I saw this video. What occured is simply wrong and completely against the teachings of Christ. We can say with no reservations that what these people (including an active priest) did was most assuredly not the answer to the question, “what would Jesus do?”

What this group did was to effectively make sure the priest knew that they would never forgive him. The Catholic priest that was present said during the videothat he was there to make sure the defrocked priest knew that he “could never get away” and that they would “always find him.” Though they have no way of seing the man’s heart, they nevertheless stated very inflammatorily that he is unrepentant, and that his words of repentance do not signify true repentance. This is an example of the very sort of judging which Christ condemned: the judging of a soul. Surely his actions were wrong, and to judge as such is entirely correct. To judge his soul, however, is sinful and presumptuous.

This man is now going to live in this house and very likely be shunned by the community. The Catholic priest whom was there made it apparent that he also will be shunned by the clerical community. Would Christ do this? Certainly not. Did He not eat with tax collectors? Did He not keep company with sinners?

Let us assume that this priest truly is unreptentant, as the group that confronted him claimed. How is he to come to repentance if he is to be so shunned? How is he to come about if he is treated so poorly? As Christ pointed out, it is the sick who need a doctor! This man if any would need a doctor.

Ought one to “turn him over to Satan,” or in other words, excommunicate him, as St. Paul recommended in 1 Corinthians? For one, this recommendation came after a long period of trying to bring the soul to repentance. Was this effort made on the part of these people? Indeed, the Church does not cut off all ties from the excommunicated, but rather it cuts him off from communion with the Church. Dialogue and attention are still afforded the guilty, for to shun and ignore such a person would drive them only further away. Does Pope Benedict refuse to speak to the leaders of SSPX? Surely not!

Most importantly, the man has claimed repentance. We must not judge this man’s heart. If he has been to confession and says that he has repented, we must not treat this man terribly. Me must forgive him 7 times 70 times. Does this mean that we leave him in the position to harm more children? Most surely not! Caution and wariness are called for and are not inconsistent with forgivenes. We must never again let this man harm a child, and if that means that his life is to be more difficult, then that is how it must be. Indeed, if he is truly repentant then he will have no problem with greater scrupolosity of his life. In fact, he would welcome it. However, we must not treat a forgiven man as a leper.

To do so makes us worse sinners than he.

 

[kyleforu]

I do understand your sentiment of forgiveness Lazer. But yet sexual violation is a crime and perversion of this worst magnitude. If this man was so repentant, then why didn’t he admit his sin BEFORE being found out YEARS later? It was only by the abused people coming forward that this individual was exposed at all. Bear this in mind. More than likely if these abused people would not have come forward and spoke out, this defrocked priest would have continued as a priest and never have changed his perverted ways.
I'm all for forgiving, but forgiving one who comes forward ON THEIR OWN before they are exposed. There is a difference. It also seemed to me that this defrocked priest STILL denied his perversions even when confronted by his abusers.Is that true repentance?

 

[Libero]

As Cardinal Murphy O’Connor said on the matter of paedophillic scandals in the church:

“There is forgiveness to be found in every sin”

 

[Lazerlike42]

kyleforu:

I do understand your sentiment of forgiveness Lazer. But yet sexual violation is a crime and perversion of this worst magnitude. If this man was so repentant, then why didn’t he admit his sin BEFORE being found out YEARS later? It was only by the abused people coming forward that this individual was exposed at all. Bear this in mind. More than likely if these abused people would not have come forward and spoke out, this defrocked priest would have continued as a priest and never have changed his perverted ways.

                                     I'm all for forgiving, but forgiving one who comes forward ON THEIR OWN before they are exposed. There is a difference. It also seemed to me that this defrocked priest STILL denied his perversions even when confronted by his abusers.Is that true repentance?

Who am I to judge another man’s servant?

Forgiveness comes with only one but: repentance. There can be no, “I’m all for forgiveness BUT.” There are no buts.

Did Christ refuse forgiveness to the woman caught in adultery because she did not come forward on her own?

 

[Aaron_I]

kyleforu:

I do understand your sentiment of forgiveness Lazer.** But yet sexual violation is a crime and perversion of this worst magnitude.** If this man was so repentant, then why didn’t he admit his sin BEFORE being found out YEARS later? It was only by the abused people coming forward that this individual was exposed at all. Bear this in mind. More than likely if these abused people would not have come forward and spoke out, this defrocked priest would have continued as a priest and never have changed his perverted ways.

                                     **I'm all for forgiving, but forgiving one who comes forward ON THEIR OWN before they are exposed.** There is a difference. It also seemed to me that this defrocked priest STILL denied his perversions even when confronted by his abusers.Is that true repentance?

First of all, I’d say murder of an unborn child is crime of the gravest magnitude. And why should they have to come forward on their own. To stick with the abortion analogy, should every woman who gets an abortion have to publicly confess her sin to be received back into the community? I can’t know the state of the priest’s soul. It is entirely possible that he has no remorse. I simply don’t know. But I do know that what you are stating here is an unfair standard.

 

[kyleforu]

Lazer
Yes, but that woman admitted to all her sins. This defrocked priest STILL denies part of his actions. RE watch the live video again.

 

[Thal59]

My biggest disappointment with the whole sex abuse scandal is the failure of the Bishops to act when they had a priest that they knew was violating children and yet took the easy path of simply sending the accused to a different parish where they victimized more children.

I was hoping that Benedict XVI, whom many referred to as “God’s Rottweiler” would lay the law down on those Bishops and clean house. Unfortunately, he dosen’t seem to be too involved so far.

Thal59

 

[Della]

Thal59:

My biggest disappointment with the whole sex abuse scandal is the failure of the Bishops to act when they had a priest that they knew was violating children and yet took the easy path of simply sending the accused to a different parish where they victimized more children.

In most of these cases their bishops had them go through pyschological counseling and it was the pyschologists who told them these priests were no longer a danger to others. So, they reassigned them on the word of “professionals.” This point seems to go unnoticed by everyone, but most especially by those with an agenda to make the Church pay and pay again, and not just financially.

I was hoping that Benedict XVI, whom many referred to as “God’s Rottweiler” would lay the law down on those Bishops and clean house. Unfortunately, he dosen’t seem to be too involved so far.

Thal59

This is a matter for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to deal with because they have jurisdiction over America. The Response and Prevention Project.

 

[Thal59]

In most of these cases their bishops had them go through pyschological counseling and it was the pyschologists who told them these priests were no longer a danger to others. So, they reassigned them on the word of “professionals.” This point seems to go unnoticed by everyone, but most especially by those with an agenda to make the Church pay and pay again, and not just financially.<<<

Della, I consider this action by the Bishops to be next to nothing. If a person has a “sexual” problem, all of the psychotherepy and counseling in the world won’t talk them out of it. Of all of man’s sciences, psychology has got to be the most unreliable and debatable. I have heard Bishop Fulton J. Sheen denounce the so-called “findings” of psychologists many times.

This is a matter for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to deal with because they have jurisdiction over America. <<<

And the Pope has jurisdiction over the Bishops. Thanks for the link. But it confirmed what I feared. Questionaires, votes, opinions, and percentages. Have you read the list of recommendations? Not once did the program mention anything regarding what should be done to the priests or the Bishops who failed to act properly. It was entirely devoted to understanding the issue of molestation, and how to help the victims. Not one bit of accountability from the Bishops regarding those Bishops who aggravated the problem by passing the buck.

Della, if I were a Bishop, and I found out that I had a priest under my authority who had sexually abused children, I would have nailed his B&*%LS to the walls and then delivered him to the police! Forgiveness and rehab would come later.

This may sound crude and unChristian, but think of how many fewer children would have been victimized. If someone in this affair was going to get hurt, I would make sure it was the perpetrator and not the victim.

Thal59

 

[Della]

>>>In most of these cases their bishops had them go through pyschological counseling and it was the pyschologists who told them these priests were no longer a danger to others. So, they reassigned them on the word of “professionals.” This point seems to go unnoticed by everyone, but most especially by those with an agenda to make the Church pay and pay again, and not just financially.<<<

Della, I consider this action by the Bishops to be next to nothing. If a person has a “sexual” problem, all of the psychotherepy and counseling in the world won’t talk them out of it. Of all of man’s sciences, psychology has got to be the most unreliable and debatable. I have heard Bishop Fulton J. Sheen denounce the so-called “findings” of psychologists many times.

I agree. I think the bishops trusted the so-called science of psychology over their common sense, with disastrous results. But, the point I was making is that in the eyes of the world the bishops believing psychologists ought to have been the right thing to do. No one wants to admit that it was the worst thing they could have done–now that we plainly see the consequences.

This is a matter for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to deal with because they have jurisdiction over America. <<<

And the Pope has jurisdiction over the Bishops. Thanks for the link. But it confirmed what I feared. Questionaires, votes, opinions, and percentages. Have you read the list of recommendations? Not once did the program mention anything regarding what should be done to the priests or the Bishops who failed to act properly. It was entirely devoted to understanding the issue of molestation, and how to help the victims. Not one bit of accountability from the Bishops regarding those Bishops who aggravated the problem by passing the buck.

Della, if I were a Bishop, and I found out that I had a priest under my authority who had sexually abused children, I would have nailed his B&*%LS to the walls and then delivered him to the police! Forgiveness and rehab would come later.

This may sound crude and unChristian, but think of how many fewer children would have been victimized. If someone in this affair was going to get hurt, I would make sure it was the perpetrator and not the victim.

Thal59

The pope doesn’t usually interfere with the decisions of the bishops unless he feels it necessary–that just how it works–according to jurisdiction. But, having said that, that doesn’t mean that the bishops won’t try to gloss over anything or pass the buck or not address the real issue. BXVI has addressed the real issue with the latest ruling on homosexuals in the priesthood. Most of the molestation was of teen-aged boys, not little kids, motivated by homosexual tendencies instead of pedophilia. The cases involving young children got all the press, of course, but they were not the majority of the cases, which the pope knows very well.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

Forgiveness needs to be understood as transcending all forms of human limitations. One could say “I can not forgive that person as they do not seek my forgiveness” but we are not called to wait for repentance but to forgive and repent ourselves actively, not reactively. Did Christ not say on the cross “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” Emphasis on the “do” as the trespassers are actually still in the act and he is forgiving them. They have neither repented nor have even stopped committing the grave act and yet he reveals to us the extraordinary forgiveness that is found in the Graces of the Cross of Christ. Also, in the Lord’s Prayer does Christ not tell us to ask forgiveness as we forgive others? Do we not seek God’s forgiveness in spite of ourselves? Why then do we maintain the double standard of limited forgiveness as evidenced by constraints that are placed on our charity/forgiveness?

 

[Thal59]

CollegeCatholic:

Forgiveness needs to be understood as transcending all forms of human limitations. One could say “I can not forgive that person as they do not seek my forgiveness” but we are not called to wait for repentance but to forgive and repent ourselves actively, not reactively. Did Christ not say on the cross “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” Emphasis on the “do” as the trespassers are actually still in the act and he is forgiving them. They have neither repented nor have even stopped committing the grave act and yet he reveals to us the extraordinary forgiveness that is found in the Graces of the Cross of Christ. Also, in the Lord’s Prayer does Christ not tell us to ask forgiveness as we forgive others? Do we not seek God’s forgiveness in spite of ourselves? Why then do we maintain the double standard of limited forgiveness as evidenced by constraints that are placed on our charity/forgiveness?

Extrapolate what you are talking about to its obvious conclusion. No one therefore should be held accountable for their actions; we should forgive everything without exception whether or not the perpetrators of the crimes are still continuing to do evil, or whether they are even indeed sorry, showing remorse, or asking for forgiveness. This speaks of forgiveness on a near Utopian level, but it completely dismisses justice.

I firmly believe in…“Also, in the Lord’s Prayer does Christ not tell us to ask forgiveness as we forgive others?” Therefore, I am always willing to perform whatever penance the Lord wants from me; I therefore expect penance from anyone else who asks forgiveness for their sins. I do not believe in the Protestant ideal of a free ride at Jesus’ expense. (Jesus will look into my heart, know I am sincere, and His blood will wash away my sin leaving me to do or account for nothing more.)

But this is the way it had always been. One confessed their sins and then had to accept whatever penance was appointed upon them before absolution could be received. This is all I ask of the Bishops and priests who are guilty of the charges. But while some of the priests have been defrocked or imprisoned, I have heard nothing being applied to the Bishops.

Thal59

 

[Lazerlike42]

I just want to make it clear that in my stance I do not intend to suggest that guilty priests need not suffer punishment (e.g., jail, etc.), only that certain behaviors (namely those of the Catholic priest whom confronted this man) are not in line with Christian forgiveness.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

kyleforu:

I’m all for forgiving, but forgiving one who comes forward ON THEIR OWN before they are exposed. There is a difference.

So your all for forgiving someone as long as it is on your own terms as I do not see these conditions listed anywhere in the Scriptures or the Teachings of the Church.

 

[Eireann]

Matt 6:14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. **15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences. **

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Eireann:

Matt 6:14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. **15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences. **

Thats it, we are all called to forgive but…

Some people mistake forgetfulness for forgiveness.

That is some people think we must forget about what has done in order to forgive. That is wrong.

I have a situation in my life with my older brother. I have forgiven him but I will not forget. This means that I will not allow myself to be put into a situation where he can do to me what he has done in the past, the thing I have forgiven him for. Some people tell me that I have not truely forgiven him but they are worng.

I think we would be stupid to place ourselves in situations where the same “crime” could be done to us over and over.

 

[Lazerlike42]

ByzCath:

Thats it, we are all called to forgive but…

Some people mistake forgetfulness for forgiveness.

That is some people think we must forget about what has done in order to forgive. That is wrong.

I have a situation in my life with my older brother. I have forgiven him but I will not forget. This means that I will not allow myself to be put into a situation where he can do to me what he has done in the past, the thing I have forgiven him for. Some people tell me that I have not truely forgiven him but they are worng.

I think we would be stupid to place ourselves in situations where the same “crime” could be done to us over and over.

There’s no doubt about that, but I don’t think anybody is advocating that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lazerlike42:

There’s no doubt about that, but I don’t think anybody is advocating that.

No, not in this thread, I was just sharing something.

Seems that here, they are advocating with holding forgiveness from anyone who gets caught without confessing publicly first.

 

[Lazerlike42]

ByzCath:

No, not in this thread, I was just sharing something.

Seems that here, they are advocating with holding forgiveness from anyone who gets caught without confessing publicly first.

More or less :ehh: