Demanding Evidence

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Yes, but notice the difference between traditional philosophy and pragmatism. You have to ask yourself this:

When we say we are justified in believing X, the question is, “With respect to what are we justified in believing X”?

(1) With respect to what is true?

(2) Or with respect to what everyone find to be performative or useful?

The latter offers a performative ground for what we take to be true. **So if what we find useful happens to change alot, so will those *epistemic reasons ***change alot.

The former offers a factual ground for what we take to be true. But the factual grounds never change, simply because the world consists of a set of regular patterns. Therefore, our epistemic reasons for what we take to be true will not vary much either.
Yes, that’s right, but still, for the pragmatist, that’s right - that’s as it should be, or, rather, as it must be. And insofar as this is true, it is necessarily true. Unfortunately for the pragmatist, it seems to be a ‘truth’ which doesn’t make a difference, doesn’t help us to answer any of the questions we’re interested in answering - just the kind of thing the pragmatist usually complains about.
 
Yes, that’s right, but still, for the pragmatist, that’s right - that’s as it should be, or, rather, as it must be. And insofar as this is true, it is necessarily true. Unfortunately for the pragmatist, it seems to be a ‘truth’ which doesn’t make a difference, doesn’t help us to answer any of the questions we’re interested in answering - just the kind of thing the pragmatist usually complains about.
I am aware of this. But the distinction I drew above is precisely what makes pragmatism so suspect to most other philosophers. And epistemic contextualism (which I agree with) about the notion of justification is not a pragmatic counterexample to the old philosopher’s idea that justification is ultimately grounded in truth because contextualism has nothing to say about truth–but pragmatism does. Pragmatism throws it out because it is not epistemically guiding.–That’s correct, in most (but not all) cases the undefinable truth is not epistemically guiding, but so what? I differ in the following respect.

Pragmatism is suspect because tying the notion of justification to what is performative instead of what is true, is not enough of an assurance that our epistemic practices are, in fact, epistemic, or, in other words “truth-preserving.” The pragmatist kills the definition of our justificatory practices as “truth-preserving,” and replaces it with “performance” and “consensus.”

I can just imagine plenty of situations where the community has no concern for what is true, and more of a concern to predict and control the universe around them, such that, they lose total sight of this very pursuit of the unadulterated truth in favor of what they find to be useful or performative. And science, which originated quite innocently as an attempt to understand the truth about the mind of God, suddenly becomes a slave to technology, leisurely pursuits, political correctness, and universal consensus. Rorty’s version of pragmatism is still a *reductionistic *program of epistemology in disguise. I find it both distasteful and dangerous, and it is not why I became a philosopher. I want the truth, pure and simple, not consensus, not performative success.
 
I can’t win no matter what I do. If I attribute my use of such terms as Cartesian Anxiety to the author who coined them I get criticized by you. If I don’t explicitly attribute them I get attacked by holy1 and warpedspeedpetey. May the three of you should argue this issue and get back to me when you come to some agreement.
I simply think its more appropriate to pull from actual philosophers about philosophy, actual historians about history, and actual evolutionary biologists about evolutionary biology. When you mix and match, the plausibility of the position you advance remains undetermined and speculative at best.

Citing your sources is always helpful too so you don’t get accused of plagiarism.

There shouldn’t be any disagreements here.
 
i seem to remember several issues about attribution over the last year, before syntax joined the gang. what caused those episodes?
 
I am aware of this. But the distinction I drew above is precisely what makes pragmatism so suspect to most other philosophers. And epistemic contextualism (which I agree with) about the notion of justification is not a pragmatic counterexample to the old philosopher’s idea that justification is ultimately grounded in truth because contextualism has nothing to say about truth–but pragmatism does. Pragmatism throws it out because it is not epistemically guiding.–That’s correct, in most (but not all) cases the undefinable truth is not epistemically guiding, but so what? I differ in the following respect.

Pragmatism is suspect because tying the notion of justification to what is performative instead of what is true, is not enough of an assurance that our epistemic practices are, in fact, epistemic, or, in other words “truth-preserving.” The pragmatist kills the definition of our justificatory practices as “truth-preserving,” and replaces it with “performance” and “consensus.”

I can just imagine plenty of situations where the community has no concern for what is true, and more of a concern to predict and control the universe around them, such that, they lose total sight of this very pursuit of the unadulterated truth in favor of what they find to be useful or performative. And science, which originated quite innocently as an attempt to understand the truth about the mind of God, suddenly becomes a slave to technology, leisurely pursuits, political correctness, and universal consensus. Rorty’s version of pragmatism is still a *reductionistic *program of epistemology in disguise. I find it both distasteful and dangerous, and it is not why I became a philosopher. I want the truth, pure and simple, not consensus, not performative success.
True enough, but… We could also imagine situations where the community has no concern for “performance” and this could be viewed as a bad thing. Philosophy has always been tangled up with claims about usefulness (going back to stories about Thales cornering the market on olive presses). The truth is not adulterated by being useful. The truth is inherently useful, I should think…

The ontology of science is fascinating subject. I’m not sure what you mean by its ‘innocence’ or by its ‘becoming a slave’ (not that I’m unsympathetic to such notions) - in your mind would this have something to do with Francis Bacon’s redefining the true end of knowledge as being for “the benefit and use of life” rather than also as an end in itself? It would for me.
 
True enough, but… We could also imagine situations where the community has no concern for “performance” and this could be viewed as a bad thing. Philosophy has always been tangled up with claims about usefulness (going back to stories about Thales cornering the market on olive presses). The truth is not adulterated by being useful. The truth is inherently useful, I should think…
Of course. I don’t deny that what is true is also useful. Nor do I deny that what is true should be useful. And notice that pragmatism, at least from what I can tell, maintains the old-school idea the knowledge can be defined as “justified, true, belief.” However, what I’m convinced is so dangerous about pragmatism is its overall deflation of the epistemic notion of justification to mere performative fruitfulness, untying it completely from having anything to do with the allegedly “nonsensical” notion of “truth”. It says we are justified in believing X merely because X is performative in this or that context, when we should be saying *in addition to this *that we are justified in believing X because X is that kind of belief which is also true. The following kind of claims I find deeply problematic. From the little I can gather someone like Rorty says,

(1) “Truth,” in principle, is nonsensical and, hence, epistemically unattainable.
(2) There are no distinctions between appearance/reality, relative/absolute.
(3) Epistemic justification is pragmatically grounded in communal performative activity independent of any hope for attaining certainty in knowledge.
(4) How the world as it is in itself is not a normative constraint on our epistemic practices, since “the world as it is in itself” is a nonsensical (perhaps Kantian) notion in the same way “truth” is.

The “Cartesian Anxiety” Rorty so readily disparages I find absolutely necessary if we are going to maintain any lasting respect for our pursuit of what is true. The “old philosophical problems” should be unnerving to us, because every human being is deeply and anxiously concerned about his or her mortality, life/death, the meaning of existence, God, religion, what he can and cannot know, what is morally right/wrong, just/unjust. When you abandon the hope that truth is ever attainable, this very pursuit of the truth originally fueling all our epistemic engagements is lost, and these very engangements become nothing more than effective game-playing. After all, what’s the use in pursuing truth if it is unattainable? So our epistemic pursuits are reduced solely to our pragmatic intents.
The ontology of science is fascinating subject. I’m not sure what you mean by its ‘innocence’ or by its ‘becoming a slave’ (not that I’m unsympathetic to such notions) - in your mind would this have something to do with Francis Bacon’s redefining the true end of knowledge as being for “the benefit and use of life” rather than also as an end in itself? It would for me.
Yes, something like that. I’ve tried to articulate some things above. But it has been a while since I’ve had to address the big-picture of Rorty/Dewey-style pragmatism since I dismissed it years ago. Swamped with the analytic approach to philosophical questions has stunted my ability to articulate more general lines of thought I’m trying to get across because I pay more attention to the details of particular arguments. I am not that talented writing abstracts for the back cover of pop-culture books like Leela is.😛 Nevertheless, I consider that a virtue, not a vice.

If you haven’t already, check out JPII’s Encyclical “Fides et Ratio,” Faith and Reason, that in many respects articulates what I’m saying about the “pragmatic” state of affairs within which scientific/philosophical inquire today finds itself. I own it, but haven’t read it for a couple years. It provides an awesome birds-eye view on this general pursuit of truth and what it means for our lives. (I’m such a Platonic realist with this stuff, as you can tell, even though I’m surrounded by nominalists and reductionists in some form or another.)
 
Betterave,

Here’s a little from “Fides et Ratio.”

Pope John Paul II cuts right to heart of Rorty-style pragmatism, showing both its epistemic nihilism and its denial of the human being’s highest expression of the pursuit of truth:

“These questions [philosophical questions] show the deep reasonableness of human existence, since they summon human intelligence and will to search freely for a solution which can reveal the full meaning of life. These enquiries [into the truth], therefore, are the highest expression of human nature; which is why the answer to them is the guage of the depth of his engagment with his own existence. In particular, when *the why of things *is explored in full harmony with the search for the ultimate answer, then human reason reaches its zenith and opens to the religious impulse. The religious impulse is the highest expression of the human person, because it is the highpoint of his rational impulse. It springs from **the profound human aspiration for the truth **and it is the basis of the human being’s free and personal search for the divine” (p. 46).

“Surveying the situation today…we see among men and women of our time, not just among philosophers, attitudes of widespread distrust of the human being’s great capacity for knowledge. . .[and distrust] of **universal **and absolute statements, especially among those who think that truth is born of consensus and not of a consanance between intellect and objective reality **[Rorty!] **. . . With a false modesty, people rest content with partial and provisional truths, no longer seeking to ask radical questions about the meaning and ultimate foundation of human, personal and social existence. . .[and] the hope that philosophy might be able to provide **definitive answers **to these questions has dwindled…”(p.15,74-5)
 
Yes, but notice the difference between traditional philosophy and pragmatism. You have to ask yourself this:

When we say we are justified in believing X, the question is, “With respect to what are we justified in believing X”?

(1) With respect to what is true?

(2) Or with respect to what everyone find to be performative or useful?

The latter offers a performative ground for what we take to be true. So if what we find useful happens to change alot, so will those *epistemic reasons *change alot.

The former offers a factual ground for what we take to be true. But the factual grounds never change, simply because the world consists of a set of regular patterns. Therefore, our epistemic reasons for what we take to be true will not vary much either.
I’m not sure I follow you here. Can you give an example to demonstrate these two different approaches to claiming justification for a specific belief?

You seem to me to be saying that one can claim that their justification for a belief is grounded in the truth of that belief–that someone can declare that her justifcation is sufficient for her belief becaise the belief is actually true. What would be the point of such a claim? Isn’t that just begging the question? I can’t see how it could work to appeal to the Truth to justify a belief. If you need to justify a belief it is presumably because someone disagrees with you about what it is actually true.

Best,
Leela
 
You seem to me to be saying that one can claim that their justification for a belief is grounded in the truth of that belief–that someone can declare that her justifcation is sufficient for her belief becaise the belief is actually true.
What would be the point of such a claim? Isn’t that just begging the question? I can’t see how it could work to appeal to the Truth to justify a belief. If you need to justify a belief it is presumably because someone disagrees with you about what it is actually true.
No, I am not saying that one’s belief is justified merely in virtue of the fact that it is true. I am saying one’s belief is justified with respect to what is true, what is actually the case. When I offer reasons in support of my beliefs, those are the kinds of reasons that lead one regularly to what is true. Those justifiying reasons wouldn’t be good reasons unless they were reasons pointing to what was true.

On the other hand, Pragmatism says one is justified with respect to what is useful, contextual, performative. When I offer reasons in support of my beliefs, those are the kinds of reasons that lead one regualrly to what is performative or useful. Those justifying reasons wouldn’t be good reasons unless they were performative or useful.

I don’t see what is so problematic here. This is precisely the distinction between most philosophers and Rorty.
 
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