Democracy, the end of Christianity?

[pro_universal]

Mike_D30:

Looking at the MSNBC article I posted about the Vatican backing teaching Judaism in public schools. I made a point of how Christians can be put to death in Israel by preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. A Jew replied that Italy is a secular country and Israel is not.

Then it occured to me, that all democracies (for the most part are Christian, maybe Hindu and Buddhist to an extent), but certainly not Judaism. Our own countries (predominantly Christian ones) invite Jews or anyone else in, where they will undoubetly convert people, but make converting Jews to Christianity an offense punishable by death in their own countries. It’s brilliant! In England Judaism is the fastest growing religon, and middle class Christians are the biggest group converting, it’s the same all over Europe.

Freedom of religion has essentially turned into a proseletyzing tool for Jews, with no worries about Jews being converted within the heart of Judaism.

So is this it? Are we living in the generation where Christians will decline? Will the expansion of Democracy and the “Global Vilage” concept be the death to widespread Chrstianity?

 

[cestusdei]

The difference is that the Jews in fact posed no threat to Germany. However, we cannot say the same about Muslims in the West today. They show frequently that we have every reason to fear them.

shadow, would you mind if I came to Pakistan and tried to publically convert you and others to Christianity? You’ll make sure my body is returned home I hope?

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

Sure. The argument McDonald makes is that Jews beg for the rest of society to open up to multi-culturalism and to allow pro-jewish agendas to be preached, while at the same time remaining closed themselves. He argues that Jews prevent intermarriage, stifle any anti-Jewish speech, and encourage being staunchly pro-Jewish in order to exploit the advantages created by the openness in the rest of the population.

That’s exactly the argument you’re making about Muslims, that they are “exploiting democracy” to preach Islam to the rest of us while they permit no preaching against Islam or dissent within the muslim community. They’re pretty much carbon copy except that where you say “muslim”, McDonald says “jew.”

Ahh no it isn’t…

Here’s the WIKI where people can read what the ‘Culture of Critique’ is:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Critique_series

sorry you are WAY off base with that comparison. What I said is a proveable fact, preach the Gospel in Saudi Arabia and you will be killed, it’s a fact…

I am claiming that your propaganda follows the Nazi model for propaganda against Jews. I am not accusing you of being a Nazi. Rather, I am saying that your views towards muslims follow a similar pattern to the Nazis views of Jews. I will make this more clear in my next post, using your original post on the thread with “Jew” substituted in for “Muslim.” Please read it and tell me how different your post is from Nazi propaganda, when all I have to do is substitute a single word to make it that way.

My propaganda?

Go reread what I wrote that was simply an observation, you twisitng this into nazi propaganda is such a joke, I can’t even take it as anything but a baseless insult.

I think your propaganda you use is no different from al quaida. You demonize the US and hate everything about the US and Christians so you justify the use of suicide bombs, and Muslim extremism.

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

Looking at the MSNBC article I posted about the Vatican backing teaching Judaism in public schools. I made a point of how Christians can be put to death in Israel by preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. A Jew replied that Italy is a secular country and Israel is not.

Then it occured to me, that all democracies (for the most part are Christian, maybe Hindu and Buddhist to an extent), but certainly not Judaism. Our own countries (predominantly Christian ones) invite Jews or anyone else in, where they will undoubetly convert people, but make converting Jews to Christianity an offense punishable by death in their own countries. It’s brilliant! In England Judaism is the fastest growing religon, and middle class Christians are the biggest group converting, it’s the same all over Europe.

Freedom of religion has essentially turned into a proseletyzing tool for Jews, with no worries about Jews being converted within the heart of Judaism.

So is this it? Are we living in the generation where Christians will decline? Will the expansion of Democracy and the “Global Vilage” concept be the death to widespread Chrstianity?

That doesn’t even make any sense, the Jews never killed people in their non existent country for preaching Christianity prior to the Holocaust. What are you talking about? This was a terrible attempt at a point.
*
“Then it occured to me, that all democracies (for the most part are Christian, maybe Hindu and Buddhist to an extent), but certainly not Judaism. Our own countries (predominantly Christian ones) invite Jews or anyone else in, where they will undoubetly convert people, but make converting Jews to Christianity an offense punishable by death in their own countries.”*"

That statement although inflamatory, makes no sense…

 

[pro_universal]

Mike,

I’m assuming you didn’t read the wiki page, because if you did, you would see this on the summary of Culture of Critique (which I have read):

Nevertheless, he alleges Jewish efforts to shape United States Immigration policy in opposition to the interests of the peoples of non-Jewish European descent, particularly the peoples of Northern and Western Europe.

Isn’t that exactly the argument you were making about Muslims?

I think your propaganda you use is no different from al quaida. You demonize the US and hate everything about the US and Christians so you justify the use of suicide bombs, and Muslim extremism.

I have specifically refuted this charge twice. I am not justifying suicide bombers, and I’m not justifying slaughter of any kind. If you wish to persist in this accusation, please quote me specifically so I can respond.

I do believe I specifically said that I am American and think it’s a good place, and that I’d like to stop radicals from ruining it. I also pointed out that minimizing slaughters committed in the name of our religion gives logical ammunition to suicide bombers, so we shouldn’t do it.

 

[pro_universal]

Mike_D30:

That doesn’t even make any sense, the Jews never killed people in their non existent country for preaching Christianity prior to the Holocaust. What are you talking about? This was a terrible attempt at a point.
*
“Then it occured to me, that all democracies (for the most part are Christian, maybe Hindu and Buddhist to an extent), but certainly not Judaism. Our own countries (predominantly Christian ones) invite Jews or anyone else in, where they will undoubetly convert people, but make converting Jews to Christianity an offense punishable by death in their own countries.”*"

That statement although inflamatory, makes no sense…

The Nazis weren’t interested in the facts, and they did accuse Jews of killing children and Europeans, and of plotting to kill more. It doesn’t make sense because you think it’s factually incorrect. I think your accusations are factually incorrect about Islam, but that doesn’t prevent me from recognizing that the format of the argument (not the content of the facts) is the same as that employed by the anti-Semites.

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

Mike,

I’m assuming you didn’t read the wiki page, because if you did, you would see this on the summary of Culture of Critique (which I have read):

Isn’t that exactly the argument you were making about Muslims?

Ahh no not at all… I said our system allows it, I never made any claim that Muslims are trying to shape our immigration policies as some form of global conspiracy at all. You are stretching and missing the point. All you are doing is making inflamatory accusations.

I have specifically refuted this charge twice. I am not justifying suicide bombers, and I’m not justifying slaughter of any kind. If you wish to persist in this accusation, please quote me specifically so I can respond.

I do believe I specifically said that I am American and think it’s a good place, and that I’d like to stop radicals from ruining it. I also pointed out that minimizing slaughters committed in the name of our religion gives logical ammunition to suicide bombers, so we shouldn’t do it.

O.K. whatever you say…

 

[LRThunder]

pro_universal:

The Nazis weren’t interested in the facts, and they did accuse Jews of killing children and Europeans, and of plotting to kill more. It doesn’t make sense because you think it’s factually incorrect. I think your accusations are factually incorrect about Islam, but that doesn’t prevent me from recognizing that the format of the argument (not the content of the facts) is the same as that employed by the anti-Semites.

The Nazis had nothing to back up their accusations with. On the other hand, we’ve seen Islamic religious officials sponsor terrorist groups and call for the deaths of critics of Islam. Ayatollah Kholemini (sp?) put a death edict on Salmon Rushdie for his book, “The Satanic Chronicles.”

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

The Nazis weren’t interested in the facts, and they did accuse Jews of killing children and Europeans, and of plotting to kill more. It doesn’t make sense because you think it’s factually incorrect. I think your accusations are factually incorrect about Islam, but that doesn’t prevent me from recognizing that the format of the argument (not the content of the facts) is the same as that employed by the anti-Semites.

They aren’t incorrect, converting a Muslim in Saudi Arabia is punishable by death. And did you sleep through 9/11? Your argument was bad, way off base, inaccurate and just inflamatory.

 

[pro_universal]

O.K. whatever you say…

Thank you for acknowledging that I do not hate america nor do I justify violence. It makes a real discussion easier when we’re both on the same page.

They aren’t incorrect, converting a Muslim in Saudi Arabia is punishable by death. And did you sleep through 9/11? Your argument was bad, way off base, inaccurate and just inflamatory.

Last I checked, Saudi Arabia was an undemocratic state that barely holds power in its own lands. Why is that so, if it actually represents Islam?

Same for 9/11. There you had a gang of terrorists who are treated as heretics by the rest of their claimed faith, yet they get to speak for the whole?

That doesn’t make any sense. It’s like saying Eric Rudolph spoke for the Church, because he’s anti-abortion just like the Church is.

Mike, the problem I see here with your reasoning is that you’re choosing which people will get to speak for Islam unfairly. Since I don’t like it when people do that to my Church by identifying us with crusaders and slave-owners, I don’t do it to others.

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

Thank you for acknowledging that I do not hate america nor do I justify violence. It makes a real discussion easier when we’re both on the same page.

I was being sarcastic, I think you’re anti-American to the core.

Last I checked, Saudi Arabia was an undemocratic state that barely holds power in its own lands. Why is that so, if it actually represents Islam?

Same for 9/11. There you had a gang of terrorists who are treated as heretics by the rest of their claimed faith, yet they get to speak for the whole?

That doesn’t make any sense. It’s like saying Eric Rudolph spoke for the Church, because he’s anti-abortion just like the Church is.

Mike, the problem I see here with your reasoning is that you’re choosing which people will get to speak for Islam unfairly. Since I don’t like it when people do that to my Church by identifying us with crusaders and slave-owners, I don’t do it to others.

LOL yet you were the first one to start thrwoing out the crusades to make your ridiculous points. The point is radical Isalm is much more widespread then you hippies will admit. In Saudi Arabia a poll after 9/11 showed 50% of educated males had a very favorable view of Osama Bin Laden. So while you can live in la la land. I will live in reality. I live in the middle of little Saudi Arabia in South Brooklyn, and most of the people are the salt of the Earth. But I’m not stupid enough to think that there isn’t a global army of jihadists hell bent on killing Americans.

The problem I see with your logic, is you use every inflamatory view to make ridiculous points. From denying radical Islam is a widespread problem, to blaming the Jews for all mid East issues. Its funny and youc all me the Nazi. You throw out the Crusades what next, the priest scandal to show what animals we are in the West? Please you very transparent, and while I am forced to love you as a human, it ain’t easy.

 

[pro_universal]

I was being sarcastic, I think you’re anti-American to the core.

Please quote to me the parts of my writing that make me an America-hater, so that I can understand what it is I’m doing to give you the wrong impression about my beliefs.

The point is radical Isalm is much more widespread then you hippies will admit. In Saudi Arabia a poll after 9/11 showed 50% of educated males had a very favorable view of Osama Bin Laden.

Contarini recently made an excellent post on this point, and I will link it to you when I find it again.

The problem I see with your logic, is you use every inflamatory view to make ridiculous points. From denying radical Islam is a widespread problem, to blaming the Jews for all mid East issues.

I am denying it. Most Muslims are not members of the radical groups and don’t like them. This is, however, unfortunately a world of “choose between two evils”, which is why groups like Al Ikhwan Al Muslimun are doing well. If the choice is between a muslim radical who won’t kill you as long as you follow oppressive laws, and a dictator who will kill you no matter what, which are you going to choose as a civilian who just wants to go about his life and work?

The solution is to extend the hand of friendship and stop tolerating attacks on muslims and oppressive governments in muslim lands. When there’s a humane option available, then we can beat the terrorist minority. Until then, what do you expect?

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

The solution is to extend the hand of friendship and stop tolerating attacks on muslims and oppressive governments in muslim lands. When there’s a humane option available, then we can beat the terrorist minority. Until then, what do you expect?

You honestly think that is the solution to deal with militant Islam? Please, al quaida doesn’t want your hand in friendship, they want your head.

Yeah the poor radical Muslims, it’s a war, a war the radical Muslims started a long time ago. I’ll think about the Muslim women who gets queer looks for her headwear, when I go past ground zero tomorrow. I’ll play the smallest violin. Maybe after they nuke Washington they’ll call it even and we can all be friends huh?

Please stop, my stomach churcns reading this nonsense. You act like there isn’t around 100,000 militant Islamic men around the globe looking to strike the West. And millions of Muslims very sympathetic to them. Those are the facts. Americans should get a lot mroe credit than you give them. After 9/11 Americans were very restrained, and eager to dialougue. But where are the Muslims to dialougue? SHow me them? SHow me where Saudi Arabia will meet in the middle and perhaps ata least not kill missionaries for giving someone OHHHH God forbid a BIBLE! How horrible we are, please dude…

 

[Shadowcry]

If you are not willing to listen why do you talk? Does it make you feel big?!

Stop raising Saudi Arabia, one immoral regime does not make a religion evil.

 

[pro_universal]

You honestly think that is the solution to deal with militant Islam? Please, al quaida doesn’t want your hand in friendship, they want your head.

Yes, I do. When the common people of the Muslim world have an option besides being raped and robbed by Saddam type dictators, or turning to radical muslim groups that will oppress them but not kill and steal every last cent, then we’ll have a chance at lasting peace.

As long as conditions prevail that leave the people there no options, groups like Al Qaeda will be able to exploit the violence and desperation.

 

[Mike_D30]

Shadowcry:

If you are not willing to listen why do you talk? Does it make you feel big?!

Stop raising Saudi Arabia, one immoral regime does not make a religion evil.

Saudi Arabia is the center of Islam, how about Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan then?

Or how about Chechnya, remember how they slaughtered 300 school children?

Sorry boss get you folks in order, stop beheading Americans, stop killing Christian missionaries, stop suicide bombing civilians, and people may begin to change opinions. It’s not all Muslims and probably not the majority, but it is A LOT!

I have no idea what you mean by make me feel big. I’ll defend myself to being called a nazi by someone who has demonized Americans, Christians and Jews all over this website, sorry.

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

Yes, I do. When the common people of the Muslim world have an option besides being raped and robbed by Saddam type dictators, or turning to radical muslim groups that will oppress them but not kill and steal every last cent, then we’ll have a chance at lasting peace.

As long as conditions prevail that leave the people there no options, groups like Al Qaeda will be able to exploit the violence and desperation.

They’re Muslim fundementalists, similar to any fundementalist, they take everything to the letter of the law. They want nothing to do with your friendship. You are crazy, forget it…

You can make buddy buddy with al quaida, why not get on a plan and go to Iraq, extend that hand of friendship. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Shadowcry]

How about you get your racism and prejudice in order before you speak. I could list crimes the west has done but itll prove futile for you why can’t you just accept Muslims and leave it at that?

 

[Mike_D30]

Shadowcry:

How about you get your racism and prejudice in order before you speak. I could list crimes the west has done but itll prove futile for you why can’t you just accept Muslims and leave it at that?

Because there are hundereds of thousands of them who swear to kill all Americans using terror. Honestly I’m seriously supposed to pretend that it doesn’t exist? What are you talking about? Accept Muslim militants? Why would I do that?

 

[Shadowcry]

Associating a religion with violence is no less then associating the west with evil. Next time you talk about Bin Laden you should think of him for you have the same line of thought.