Democracy

[Steven_John]

Times are moving quickly, Democracy is on the rise in the east. Is it an image of the false prophet?
Christians are not democratic people as best i understand from the bible narrations. I am not a good reader so may have missed something.
Democracy does facilitate free will that allows people to practice their religious understanding without persecution. It embraces free will.

However in the bible people dont vote, why? because people are flawed on their own. Bible followers dont vote their councils they pray and draw straws. Not as embracing chance as the pagans would understand but in trusting God will help us to be of his will from the outcome of drawing straws.

God offered us Kingdom not democracy. Voting in society is very important for believers as we intend to speak for God in our votes but if in our communities we vote we should have courage to ask how God told us to do this, and if He did not why have we moved away from His instruction. Do we trust His supernatural influence in our state of being or do we seek to trust the secular practice?

In democratic countries majority rule allows things that are against God, gay marriage, abortion and so on.
Same goes i reckon in parishes and communities when people vote they put their personal understandings and relationships first. Would you vote for some one you dont know and have no knowledge of? Using discernment would suggest in all honestly you cant. But for inspiration of the spirit, if you are perfect this work fine but we know that the dark can appear as light. If we trust God drawing straws is infallible.

What do you think is the rising of Democracy and image of the false prophet?

IMO we are to stand for Democracy in the secular world as we know from many narration in scripture these times are to come but will need courage to call it what it is, good for this time but far from perfect and not to be embraced and stand against it inside of believing communities.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Roe vs. Wade was a Supreme Court decision. Hardly the choice of the people.

 

[nablaise]

Democracy means ‘power of the people’ not power of God.

In as far as people considers themselves ‘God’ or as some say ‘the voice of the people is the voice of God’ we have false prophecy. And the people are the false prophet themselves.

Here is one of my favorites quotes from St. Augustine:

City of God. Book 14:4
When, therefore, man lives according to man, not according to God, he is like the devil. Because not even an angel might live according to an angel, but only according to God, if he was to abide in the truth, and speak God’s truth and not his own lie. And of man, too, the same apostle says in another place, “If the truth of God has more abounded through my lie;” Romans 3:7 — “my lie,” he said, and “God’s truth.” When, then, a man lives according to the truth, he lives not according to himself, but according to God; for He was God who said, “I am the truth.” John 14:6 When, therefore, man lives according to himself—that is, according to man, not according to God—assuredly he lives according to a lie; not that man himself is a lie, for God is his author and creator, who is certainly not the author and creator of a lie, but because man was made upright, that he might not live according to himself, but according to Him that made him—in other words, that he might do His will and not his own; and not to live as he was made to live, that is a lie. For he certainly desires to be blessed even by not living so that he may be blessed. And what is a lie if this desire be not? Wherefore it is not without meaning said that all sin is a lie. For no sin is committed save by that desire or will by which we desire that it be well with us, and shrink from it being ill with us. That, therefore, is a lie which we do in order that it may be well with us, but which makes us more miserable than we were. And why is this, but because the source of man’s happiness lies only in God, whom he abandons when he sins, and not in himself, by living according to whom he sins?

 

[GEddie]

Some classical philosopher, name escapes me, said the 3 best governments were, in decreasing order, kingship, nobility and “politeia” (meaning a generalized, rational participation in governance) while the 3 worst, in increasing order, were democracy, oligarchy and tyranny.

The difficulty was that kingships turned into tyrannies; nobilities turned into oligarchies; and “politeia” (the one of the six terms that has no translation) turned into democracy. The conclusion being that given the human life we have, we should strive to democracy as the best governance we can sustain.

This squares with the Christian sense of human life as “fallen.” Eternal life, however, will be the Kingdom of Heaven. And the Church is its representation on earth, which is why it is not, and will never be a democracy.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA!

 

[Steven_John]

Roe vs. Wade was a Supreme Court decision. Hardly the choice of the people.

Peace and blessings dont know the case you speak of and would have to look into it. The court is empowered by the people, dont doubt in all democracy is void of moving away from the ideal. Bless ya

 

[Steven_John]

Some classical philosopher, name escapes me, said the 3 best governments were, in decreasing order, kingship, nobility and “politeia” (meaning a generalized, rational participation in governance) while the 3 worst, in increasing order, were democracy, oligarchy and tyranny.

The difficulty was that kingships turned into tyrannies; nobilities turned into oligarchies; and “politeia” (the one of the six terms that has no translation) turned into democracy. The conclusion being that given the human life we have, we should strive to democracy as the best governance we can sustain.

This squares with the Christian sense of human life as “fallen.” Eternal life, however, will be the Kingdom of Heaven. And the Church is its representation on earth, which is why it is not, and will never be a democracy.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA!

blessings, i thank God for your post its great. I have found out our Catholic parish council is a democracy. I was asked to stand for election, what i put in bold of your words is the pure truth.
Does your parish vote councils?
Blessings to you and yours

 

[Steven_John]

Democracy means ‘power of the people’ not power of God.

In as far as people considers themselves ‘God’ or as some say ‘the voice of the people is the voice of God’ we have false prophecy. And the people are the false prophet themselves.

Here is one of my favorites quotes from St. Augustine:

Like your post very much, does your parish vote? or do you have other ways?

blessings to you and yours

 

[Steven_John]

Some classical philosopher, name escapes me, said the 3 best governments were, in decreasing order, kingship, nobility and “politeia” (meaning a generalized, rational participation in governance) while the 3 worst, in increasing order, were democracy, oligarchy and tyranny.

The difficulty was that kingships turned into tyrannies; nobilities turned into oligarchies; and “politeia” (the one of the six terms that has no translation) turned into democracy. The conclusion being that given the human life we have, we should strive to democracy as the best governance we can sustain.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA!

Philosophers can be very dangerous to man.
The section in bold points to the contradiction of early church tradition who did not vote.
how does your congregation make decisions? Do you know of any where in the Catholic church where voting takes place and how they substantiate the practice?
Peace and blessings

 

[GEddie]

blessings, i thank God for your post its great. I have found out our Catholic parish council is a democracy. I was asked to stand for election, what i put in bold of your words is the pure truth.
Does your parish vote councils?
Blessings to you and yours

As far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with an elected church council. The reason being, that all genuine authority still rests with the priests, and through them, with the Bishop, etc. The council, aiui, is simply a group of people who help Father with the minutia of operating the parish.

Standing for election in a church council is not a move for democratization of the Church. If you did, and were elected, it would be a great way to serve God, IMNAAHO.

Now if the pastor were elected… but that can’t happen

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Nine_Two]

Some classical philosopher, name escapes me, said the 3 best governments were, in decreasing order, kingship, nobility and “politeia” (meaning a generalized, rational participation in governance) while the 3 worst, in increasing order, were democracy, oligarchy and tyranny.

The difficulty was that kingships turned into tyrannies; nobilities turned into oligarchies; and “politeia” (the one of the six terms that has no translation) turned into democracy. The conclusion being that given the human life we have, we should strive to democracy as the best governance we can sustain.

This squares with the Christian sense of human life as “fallen.” Eternal life, however, will be the Kingdom of Heaven. And the Church is its representation on earth, which is why it is not, and will never be a democracy.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA!

Aristotle.

Plato also ranked democracy as the second worst system (saying it naturally gave rise to tyranny, the worst, as one man would inevitably arise to save the people from themselves).

However what they called democracy isn’t what we call democracy. They meant Athenian democracy, a system under which every citizen (and not everyone was a citizen) took a full and active role in government.

What the west has is closer to a populist oligarchy.

 

[GEddie]

Aristotle.

Thx.

Plato also ranked democracy as the second worst system (saying it naturally gave rise to tyranny, the worst, as one man would inevitably arise to save the people from themselves).

However what they called democracy isn’t what we call democracy. They meant Athenian democracy, a system under which every citizen (and not everyone was a citizen) took a full and active role in government.

Indeed. And in the Athenian democratic period (which lasted only about 100 years, IIRC, from 450? to 350? BC; but at least they built the Parthenon), women were excluded from governeance, as were the 60% of residents who were enslaved. Hardly
“everybody” got to be part of it.

What the west has is closer to a populist oligarchy.

Well, at least in USA, we admit that we are not a democracy, but a representative republic.

GOD Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Nine_Two]

Indeed. And in the Athenian democratic period (which lasted only about 100 years, IIRC, from 450? to 350? BC; but at least they built the Parthenon), women were excluded from governeance, as were the 60% of residents who were enslaved. Hardly
“everybody” got to be part of it.

Freemen also had no say in it, and citizenship was something that could be taken away.

I seem to recall from university that it was something like 5,000 men who could actually vote. I don’t remember what the actual population was, and I can’t guess.

 

[JonNC]

Aristotle.

Plato also ranked democracy as the second worst system (saying it naturally gave rise to tyranny, the worst, as one man would inevitably arise to save the people from themselves).

However what they called democracy isn’t what we call democracy. They meant Athenian democracy, a system under which every citizen (and not everyone was a citizen) took a full and active role in government.

What the west has is closer to a populist oligarchy.

And our (American) founders also abhored democracy.

Jon

 

[benidict]

And our (American) founders also abhored democracy.

Jon

Q:What kind of government have you given us?A: A Republic, if you can keep it! This from one of our American founders, I want to say Benjamin Franklin, but im not sure… help me out. Peace.

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t see the point of this thread in the non-Catholic religions section. Nevertheless I have a comment.

Democracy has many flaws, but all the alternatives have already been tried and found lacking as well. Pick your poison.

Actually, I think in a healthy culture democracy is quite the ideal, so perhaps the complaints should be directed elsewhere.

 

[FaithJoy]

America is a Republic Democracy. A pure democracy fails, as history has shown, unless you have a republic involved in gov’t. That would also mean a constitution be required to hold the republic as the law of the land.

 

[Hesychios]

JonNC;7593116:

And our (American) founders also abhored democracy.

Jon

Q:What kind of government have you given us?A: A Republic, if you can keep it! This from one of our American founders, I want to say Benjamin Franklin, but im not sure… help me out. Peace.

Republic and Democracy are not synonyms.

The founding Fathers went to war over bankers rights.

 

[benidict]

I don’t see the point of this thread in the non-Catholic religions section. Nevertheless I have a comment.

Democracy has many flaws, but all the alternatives have already been tried and found lacking as well. Pick your poison.

Actually, I think in a healthy culture democracy is quite the ideal, so perhaps the complaints should be directed elsewhere.

A constitutional republic, with a representative government of the people, by the people, and for the people works better for me. Its what the Founding Fathers intended. They did not want a Democracy. you wont find the word democracy in the Constitution of the United States. Not too sure about the Federalist papers, I will have to double check. Democracy is doomed to end in Totalitarianism every time. Our founders knew this. Peace

 

[GEddie]

I don’t see the point of this thread in the non-Catholic religions section. Nevertheless I have a comment.

Democracy has many flaws, but all the alternatives have already been tried and found lacking as well. Pick your poison.

Actually, I think in a healthy culture democracy is quite the ideal, so perhaps the complaints should be directed elsewhere.

Democracy is an ideal; but it has remained just that, an ideal. There are no direct democracies left in the world, although the citizens of representational systems think of themselves as members of democracy.

The American Constitution was understood at its inception, that it did not create a democracy. The founders knew how unstable true democracy could become. In many ways, its operation has “democratized” over time (abolition of property requirements in voting; inclusion of women; direct election of the Senators; etc.)

The pattern for this country was always a Federal republic rather than democracy. The reason being that in direct democracy, nothing prevents a majority from running down the minority; consider how Socrates was treated in his city’s golden age.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Hesychios]

Democracy is an ideal; but it has remained just that, an ideal. There are no direct democracies left in the world, although the citizens of representational systems think of themselves as members of democracy.

The American Constitution was understood at its inception, that it did not create a democracy. The founders knew how unstable true democracy could become. In many ways, its operation has “democratized” over time (abolition of property requirements in voting; inclusion of women; direct election of the Senators; etc.)

The pattern for this country was always a Federal republic rather than democracy. The reason being that in direct democracy, nothing prevents a majority from running down the minority; consider how Socrates was treated in his city’s golden age.

ICXC NIKA.

I agree with what you say, but the democratic ideal is at the heart of the Republic, it enlivens it with a higher purpose. This was not exactly so from the beginning, when so many rich families preferred to control the system for their own purposes.

So now we have women and renters voting, and Senators directly elected. I for one do not see that as a bad thing.