demon zombies

[royal_archer]

I got into an interesting discussion about demonic possession of the dead. and have some serious questions about church teaching on the issue. Yes, I am being serious here.

I suspect the official church teaching is silent on this in that it is up to the individual to choose whether to believe or not and is neither supported by church teaching or in conflict with church teaching. This is focused on zombies created through demonic possession and not those due to chemicals, disease, virus, etc.

Can a demon possess and animate a corpse and create a zombie?

Can a demon animate a corpse with out provocation?

Can a demon animated corpse grow / age?

Can a demon animated corpse procreate?

Can a demon animated corpse have an otherwise normal appearance?

I did find this link:
jimmyakin.org/2005/08/theology_of_the.html
but it does not talk to the demon aspects.

 

[promethius]

Can a demon possess and animate a corpse and create a zombie?

No. Possession is a fault of a will which opens itself to influence of a demon. The demon does not BECOME the will of the body, but rather subjugates the will to it’s own desires. Without a will and the invitation or openness to the demon, there can be no possession. Since dead bodies do not have a soul and therefore no will, they cannot be possessed.

Can a demon animate a corpse with out provocation?

No.

Can a demon animated corpse grow / age?

Aging is based on corrosive influence of oxygen as well as other toxins. The cells are destroyed faster than the body metabolizes energy (after a certain point in age) and the body slowly dies as a result. So if such a thing were possible, yes, the body would continue to age.

Can a demon animated corpse procreate?

Scientifically there is no way to answer this. There is also no way to answer it theologically since demon-animated corpses are an impossibility.

Can a demon animated corpse have an otherwise normal appearance?

Do possessed people have a normal appearance? Perhaps at first, but one of the signs of possession is an inherent “wrongness”… a sensory perception that the person is not what they appear… that there is a sinister something more which is also present.

But again, there is no such thing as a demon animated corpse, so there is no way to realistically answer this question.

CONCLUSION: You’re thinking of demonic possession with the wrong goal. Possession is not a means to cause physical havoc, say by animating corpses to physically attack people. Satan has no need to end your life, his goal is to capture your soul. Thus demonic possession preys upon those who are alive, who have a soul to lose. If a “zombie” attacks 500 innocent and Godly people, then satan has won nothing because these souls ostensibly go to heaven. Instead, satan wants to possess the living, to subvert their will to his, and to take them to an eternity of damnation. Never confuse that. The battle with satan is on a far more lasting and dangerous battlefield than just the physical world.

 

[NJJMBVB]

I got into an interesting discussion about demonic possession of the dead. and have some serious questions about church teaching on the issue. Yes, I am being serious here.

I suspect the official church teaching is silent on this in that it is up to the individual to choose whether to believe or not and is neither supported by church teaching or in conflict with church teaching. This is focused on zombies created through demonic possession and not those due to chemicals, disease, virus, etc.

Can a demon possess and animate a corpse and create a zombie?

Can a demon animate a corpse with out provocation?

Can a demon animated corpse grow / age?

Can a demon animated corpse procreate?

Can a demon animated corpse have an otherwise normal appearance?

I did find this link:
jimmyakin.org/2005/08/theology_of_the.html
but it does not talk to the demon aspects.

Since a corpse is no longer human and only matter, without a soul, I don’t see why demons couldn’t manipulate it - Saints testify that demons influence matter all the time.
That being said, why would a demon do that, when it would prove the existence of spiritual realities? Demons are much more likely to infiltrate and work behind the scenes, causing people to sin.

 

[promethius]

Since a corpse is no longer human and only matter, without a soul, I don’t see why demons couldn’t manipulate it - Saints testify that demons influence matter all the time.

In a very limited way. To activate a dead body and infuse it with something resembling a will? Eh… not so much. If this were an available and effective tactic, we’d have dead bodies walking around attacking people and refusing to die by any means.

I sincerely doubt there is any way a demon could sustain such a physical influence like this because it violates God’s will. The dead are dead. God has made it so. They cannot be brought back or reanimated.

And yes, demons ARE able to influence the physical in order to manifest attacks or effects, but this is a whole order of magnitude different.

 

[dusty_david]

When my various nephews were somewhere between 5 to 7 years old, I told them that zombies not only exist but they love to spank bad little boys before they devoured them. The nephews weren’t upset about getting eaten. They thought that was cool. But to be spanked by large decaying hands before being chomped freaked them out. Caused them to have nightmares. Me, my brother and brothers-in-law thought zombies spanking little boys was hysterical. My sisters and sister-in-law thought scaring little boys was not so funny. The ladies forced me to apologize to my nephews and double swear that zombies did not exist. Bummer.

 

[royal_archer]

Thank you your results make good sense. Although I would like to dig a bit deaper based on a few of your answers.

No. Possession is a fault of a will which opens itself to influence of a demon. The demon does not BECOME the will of the body, but rather subjugates the will to it’s own desires. Without a will and the invitation or openness to the demon, there can be no possession. Since dead bodies do not have a soul and therefore no will, they cannot be possessed.

Is this a matter of the term “possession”. I agree that a dead person can not be corrupted but can the left over carcas be moved by the demonic in a way that immitate life?

Aging is based on corrosive influence of oxygen as well as other toxins. The cells are destroyed faster than the body metabolizes energy (after a certain point in age) and the body slowly dies as a result. So if such a thing were possible, yes, the body would continue to age.

by aging I was meaning growing older in a natural sense such as a living body will.

Scientifically there is no way to answer this. There is also no way to answer it theologically since demon-animated corpses are an impossibility.

This is a discussion based on theory, philosophy and theology. Obviously zombies are impossible based on current scientific knowledge and obviously we do not have any evidence of this actually hapening. Has the church ruled that it is impossible? has the church ruled that it is heretical to state the possibility?

Do possessed people have a normal appearance? Perhaps at first, but one of the signs of possession is an inherent “wrongness”… a sensory perception that the person is not what they appear… that there is a sinister something more which is also present.

But again, there is no such thing as a demon animated corpse, so there is no way to realistically answer this question.

I was thinking along the terms of would blood continue to circulate and keep the skin a normal color, would the eyes be diolated or constrict normally, etc.

CONCLUSION: You’re thinking of demonic possession with the wrong goal. Possession is not a means to cause physical havoc, say by animating corpses to physically attack people. Satan has no need to end your life, his goal is to capture your soul. Thus demonic possession preys upon those who are alive, who have a soul to lose. If a “zombie” attacks 500 innocent and Godly people, then satan has won nothing because these souls ostensibly go to heaven. Instead, satan wants to possess the living, to subvert their will to his, and to take them to an eternity of damnation. Never confuse that. The battle with satan is on a far more lasting and dangerous battlefield than just the physical world.

As to the motive: I agree that there would be no motive to the typically depicted zombie hordes trying to eat the living. However, if the motive were to wreek havoc in the lives of those around the person whos body is taken over through more indirect means. . .

 

[royal_archer]

Since a corpse is no longer human and only matter, without a soul, I don’t see why demons couldn’t manipulate it - Saints testify that demons influence matter all the time.
That being said, why would a demon do that, when it would prove the existence of spiritual realities? Demons are much more likely to infiltrate and work behind the scenes, causing people to sin.

Unless the zombie had the appearance of a living human and the demon could use that to attain some end as that zombie interacted with humans.

 

[royal_archer]

In a very limited way. To activate a dead body and infuse it with something resembling a will? Eh… not so much. If this were an available and effective tactic, we’d have dead bodies walking around attacking people and refusing to die by any means.

That would be true if demons were invading the cemetaries and bringing back the partially decomposed. How would we know if they caught someone who died with a medical condition at the moment of death?

I sincerely doubt there is any way a demon could sustain such a physical influence like this because** it violates God’s will**. The dead are dead. God has made it so. They cannot be brought back or reanimated.

And yes, demons ARE able to influence the physical in order to manifest attacks or effects, but this is a whole order of magnitude different.

I agree with what you stated from the aspect that it is a reasoned assessment to make.

Are you aware of any church teachings that I could research further?

I would like to have my ducks in a row when I resume my discusion.

 

[royal_archer]

When my various nephews were somewhere between 5 to 7 years old, I told them that zombies not only exist but they love to spank bad little boys before they devoured them. The nephews weren’t upset about getting eaten. They thought that was cool. But to be spanked by large decaying hands before being chomped freaked them out. Caused them to have nightmares. Me, my brother and brothers-in-law thought zombies spanking little boys was hysterical. My sisters and sister-in-law thought scaring little boys was not so funny. The ladies forced me to apologize to my nephews and double swear that zombies did not exist. Bummer.

I gave my son’s “magic” foam swords to keep in bed with them to deal with any zombies, etc. when they went through that phase. It seemed to work.

 

[VonDerTann]

2 points:

1. Cute stuffed animals, dolls, etc., are an effective defense against zombies. Zombies are terrified of stuffed animals. Children can zombie-proof rooms by arranging/deploying numerous cute animals around doors, etc., particularly in dark rooms.
2. Seriously, Prometheus, IMHO your posts are excellent.

-VdT

 

[promethius]

Thank you your results make good sense. Although I would like to dig a bit deaper based on a few of your answers.

Sure thing!

Is this a matter of the term “possession”. I agree that a dead person can not be corrupted but can the left over carcas be moved by the demonic in a way that immitate life?

I’m going to come back to this one in a response to your next post… discussing why such an act as a violation of God’s will makes it most likely impossible that this could happen.

by aging I was meaning growing older in a natural sense such as a living body will.

Yep. That’s what aging is. It’s a build-up of cells as the body takes in and metabolizes energy, and a destruction of cells as corrosive forces attack the body. When the body begins to metabolize less energy than it takes to rebuild an equivalent number of cells, the growth process ends and the “aging” process begins. Utter decay, as we generally think of the word, is when the body is dead and no metabolizing of any energy occurs, so the destruction of cells is not slowed by any bodily replenishment… but in a sense, aging is in itself a form of decay.

Short answer, yes, bodies will continue to “age/decay” if they were reanimated, provided they metabolized less energy than it took to rebuild cells. If there was no rebuilding of cells, they would “age/decay” rapidly. If they metabolized MORE energy than they needed to just rebuild cells, they would rebuild FASTER than the decay rate, thus turning into growth rather than aging.

This is a discussion based on theory, philosophy and theology. Obviously zombies are impossible based on current scientific knowledge and obviously we do not have any evidence of this actually hapening. Has the church ruled that it is impossible? has the church ruled that it is heretical to state the possibility?

Not heresy, but I’ll get in the next post as to why I think the idea is an impossibility given understanding of the Church’s teachings on the body and soul.

But as to mating, I honestly have no clue. Do these zombies metabolize? If they don’t they couldn’t have offspring because baby growth is a massive metabolisis of energy from food the mother consumes…

I was thinking along the terms of would blood continue to circulate and keep the skin a normal color, would the eyes be diolated or constrict normally, etc.

On this one, I think that it’s still just hypothetical. If the demon could take over someone’s body, presumably they could make the heart beat and could carry out the metabolic processes to make appearance normal.

 

[promethius]

I’m going to treat your whole post as one point for the purposes of a response… (hope you don’t mind!)

That would be true if demons were invading the cemetaries and bringing back the partially decomposed. How would we know if they caught someone who died with a medical condition at the moment of death?

I agree with what you stated from the aspect that it is a reasoned assessment to make.

Are you aware of any church teachings that I could research further?

I would like to have my ducks in a row when I resume my discusion.

I’m not sure that any church teachings specifically state whether or not a demon can animate a body to create a zombie-like creature… but I would think that church theology of the body would prohibit it.

To wit: A body is not just a vessel… it is inextricably tied to a specific soul. At the end of time, you will be reunited with your body, made perfect in the presence of God. It is YOUR body, it is tied to YOUR will and YOUR soul eternally. Without an act of the will, a demon could not take this over.

So the question in my mind is, knowing you’ll be given your body back at the end of time, why would there be an allowance for a demon to utterly violate the body by assuming control of it with no act of the human will at all? This, in effect, would be an unwilling violation of the human dignity of the body… so it seems native to my mind that a demon would not be allowed to do such a demeaning thing. In other words, such a thing is an abomination so horrendous that I’m reasonably certain God wouldn’t allow it on the fundamental grounds that it goes against every structure He created in humanity… OUR soul, OUR will, OUR body, from now until forever.

Thus demonic attacks that I’ve read of focus on material things in ATTACKING a person, but they never are able to violate the fundamental dignity of the human person by ceasing control of someone’s body against the will of that person. There must be compliance by the person in order for this to occur.

Of course, that’s all just my understanding. If one of our resident priests here would like to clarify/reject all this, I’d** LOVE** to read it…

 

[promethius]

1. Seriously, Prometheus, IMHO your posts are excellent.

-VdT

Thanks VonDerTann! I really appreciate it!

I try to take religion in the context that it is objective truth, and therefore science and faith (er, all searches for truth) should be direct reflections of each other in terms of the reality that they portray… being a Catholic bachelor of Physics in the military is really a strange position to be in from time to time.

Pax et Amor Christi tecum and nice to meet you!

 

[mdrummer5]

1. Cute stuffed animals, dolls, etc., are an effective defense against zombies. Zombies are terrified of stuffed animals. Children can zombie-proof rooms by arranging/deploying numerous cute animals around doors, etc., particularly in dark rooms.

This just made my morning.

I honestly expected this thread to be about a video game as I temporarly forgot what forum I was looking at but this alone made it worth me checking out. Thanks!

 

[royal_archer]

Thanks VonDerTann! I really appreciate it!

I try to take religion in the context that it is objective truth, and therefore science and faith (er, all searches for truth) should be direct reflections of each other in terms of the reality that they portray… being a Catholic bachelor of Physics in the military is really a strange position to be in from time to time.

Pax et Amor Christi tecum and nice to meet you!

I feel science philosophy and theology where known and understood properly will compliment each other and not conflict.

 

[royal_archer]

I’m going to treat your whole post as one point for the purposes of a response… (hope you don’t mind!)

I’m not sure that any church teachings specifically state whether or not a demon can animate a body to create a zombie-like creature… but I would think that church theology of the body would prohibit it.

To wit: A body is not just a vessel… it is inextricably tied to a specific soul. At the end of time, you will be reunited with your body, made perfect in the presence of God. It is YOUR body, it is tied to YOUR will and YOUR soul eternally. Without an act of the will, a demon could not take this over.

So the question in my mind is, knowing you’ll be given your body back at the end of time, why would there be an allowance for a demon to utterly violate the body by assuming control of it with no act of the human will at all? This, in effect, would be an unwilling violation of the human dignity of the body… so it seems native to my mind that a demon would not be allowed to do such a demeaning thing. In other words, such a thing is an abomination so horrendous that I’m reasonably certain God wouldn’t allow it on the fundamental grounds that it goes against every structure He created in humanity… OUR soul, OUR will, OUR body, from now until forever.

Thus demonic attacks that I’ve read of focus on material things in ATTACKING a person, but they never are able to violate the fundamental dignity of the human person by ceasing control of someone’s body against the will of that person. There must be compliance by the person in order for this to occur.

Of course, that’s all just my understanding. If one of our resident priests here would like to clarify/reject all this, I’d** LOVE** to read it…

By the way I am glad to find someone who is willing to discuss the serious background aspects of this otherwise rediculous topic.

I am sort of inclined to believe that a body would not heal or grow (eg child growing up). I also do not believe the zombie bodies could create life. But I am guessing that a woman whose eggs were already developed or a man whose sperm was already developed could continue to be used to create life. At least to the same extent that if a person dies, and their sex organs were harvested and be used for test tube babies. Another precedent I was considering based on your comments was with organ donation where specific organs can continue to function separated from the soul they were assigned to.

The resurection point is a good one. I am guessing that the bodies of the saved would have more divine protection than the bodies of those who are not destined for salvation.