Demons and free will

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cornbread_r2 said:
I wonder how the logistics of this actually works. For instance, as I understand it, the Devil is constantly trying to ensnare people, so that’s potentially billions of temptations each day.* So, does God consult with the Devil – in advance – billions of times each day, deciding which people will be tempted and which won’t?

Except I’ve also read on these forums and elsewhere that even people in the state of grace – people who haven’t dabbled in any occult practices whatsoever – can also be tempted and possessed.
  • However, I also understand that the Devil is not omnipresent, like God is, so it would seem that these temptations must be done individually, one at a time. If that’s true, then it would seem that the Devil could only tempt a very limited number of people each day.
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It is hard for us with our finite minds to wrap our understanding around the deep things of God. All things are possible for God - He is omniscient and omnipotent and infinite in all He does. I don’t know how to explain it better than that.

In the past I have gotten “hung up” on certain things about such mysteries. I finally realized all I need to do is obey the Lord, trust Him, and accept the explanations and helps of the Doctors of the Church.

Everything God allows is for our good. He is ever ready to aid us and bring us to where we should be.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
Where can I find authoritative information as to the number of demons?
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How many people have ever lived? Each one has a Guardian Angel and the fact that Satan swept 1/3 of the angels away would mean he has half the amount that there are Angels.

The world must be jam-packed with demons, they must be queuing up!

 
VeritasLuxMea said:
Pretty sure that people are just making that stuff up.
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I believe St Paul states that demons so heavily saturate the earth, theyre in the very air we breathe and if they could be seen, they would blacken the sky.

Thats a lot of demons. :eek:
 
VeritasLuxMea said:
I get that we live in a fallen world and God apparently is OK with that, so there will always be people that tempt us. But what gives with God allowing demons and other supernatural entities to tempt us and lead us away from Him? I know that technically we still have free will, although it’s hard to imagine how one’s free will can be strong enough to overcome a supernatural force.

So if we have free will, why does God allow demons to interfere with that?

Additionally, why did God bless Priests with the ability to cast out demons, but not, say, the ordinary faithful? I’m not trying to take away from the importance of Priests but it seems a little weird to me that God would say something like this, “can the faithful person find a Priest to handle it? Yes? Good. No? Sorry, you’re out of luck!”
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Demons have great intellects but God does not allow them to overcome our free will that He gave us. They temp and God gives graces. That is the spiritual battle.

As to your comment on casting out demons, people who are not priests can bind demons. I have done it myself with my own self. It is done with the most powerful thing there is, that being “in the name of Jesus”. You can pray in all seriousness that demons who are causing the “trouble” be bound and sent to the foot of the cross and ask that good angels replace them and that grace be present in the situation. There are many Tan Books on the subject of Spiritual Warfare.
 
Thorns said:
I believe St Paul states that demons so heavily saturate the earth, theyre in the very air we breathe and if they could be seen, they would blacken the sky.

Thats a lot of demons. :eek:
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And to think Satan managed to convince EACH ONE OF THEM that he was right and God was wrong!! I find that totally amazing, mainly because these angels were not ignorant beings, they are much more intelligent than any human…that is scary to think so many could be convinced of the same thing.
 
mikekle said:
And to think Satan managed to convince EACH ONE OF THEM that he was right and God was wrong!! I find that totally amazing, mainly because these angels were not ignorant beings, they are much more intelligent than any human…that is scary to think so many could be convinced of the same thing.
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Having always been some sort of Devil’s advocate, I ponder: is there something about God that would make them want to rebel and not be with him? Remember, they’re very intelligent, they’re pure spirits, there must be something about God that we’re not told in the Bible, a semi-fiction authorized biography. I think it probably has to do with God’s narcissism or his tyrannical ways. One freaking third of all angels freely chose to not be with God. But since it’s the Bible and facts are scarce in it, I take 1/3 to mean a fairly large proportion of the angelic population.
 
Robertanthony said:
Having always been some sort of Devil’s advocate, I ponder: is there something about God that would make them want to rebel and not be with him? Remember, they’re very intelligent, they’re pure spirits, there must be something about God that we’re not told in the Bible, a semi-fiction authorized biography. I think it probably has to do with God’s narcissism or his tyrannical ways. One freaking third of all angels freely chose to not be with God. But since it’s the Bible and facts are scarce in it, I take 1/3 to mean a fairly large proportion of the angelic population.
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From your post you must have an unresolved issue with God. I will pray for you.
But to answer the question you posed, The angels in their trial were not able to see God but had to make the decision to be with Him or not. It was a matter of pride in that they wanted to be their own authority instead of being under the authority of the Supreme One who is all good and loving. It is similar to Adam and Eve in that they also wanted to make their own rules and thus the fall. Similar to the angels, Adam and Eve “walked with God” which means that they were in His friendship but not able to see the beatific vision. It is a matter of pride to want to be your own “god” and make your own rules on what is right or wrong instead of knowing that a God who is all knowing and omniscient is the creator of everything and deserves our faithfulness and return of love. God’s ways are not tyrannical because a tyrant is completely the opposite of the virtues of God. He is faithful to us even when we are not and continues to pursue us in the midst of our sins.
 
Robertanthony said:
Having always been some sort of Devil’s advocate, I ponder: is there something about God that would make them want to rebel and not be with him? Remember, they’re very intelligent, they’re pure spirits, there must be something about God that we’re not told in the Bible, a semi-fiction authorized biography. I think it probably has to do with God’s narcissism or his tyrannical ways. One freaking third of all angels freely chose to not be with God. But since it’s the Bible and facts are scarce in it, I take 1/3 to mean a fairly large proportion of the angelic population.
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Yea, this is what I was thinking too, in order for Satan to refuse to serve and then for THAT MANY additional angels to also choose to follow satan instead of God, there must be something about God or his nature we are not told about in the bible…this only makes sense, as we are not talking about 1 or 2, or even a handful of angels, this was possibly millions of them that chose the ‘other’ path…I think this is HUGE, but we cant know the details I guess.
 
It was pride that caused the fall of the angels. They would not bow before Him, yet He had created them.

God is infinitely good.
 
mikekle said:
Yea, this is what I was thinking too, in order for Satan to refuse to serve and then for THAT MANY additional angels to also choose to follow satan instead of God, there must be something about God or his nature we are not told about in the bible…this only makes sense, as we are not talking about 1 or 2, or even a handful of angels, this was possibly millions of them that chose the ‘other’ path…I think this is HUGE, but we cant know the details I guess.
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Something about God? If you read about the story of salvation in the bible you will find that humans will ultimately be above the level of the angels by being made sons and daughters of God. This means that we will ultimately have a physical and spiritual being that will know the beatific vision. The angels will only be spiritual beings. They cannot receive communion with the creator and can only “be”. This is the story that some people proposed in that now the angels serve humans but in the end humans will be above angels. By not doing this, pride entered into their consciousness and did not choose God based upon His Will. So the story goes, and makes some sense.
It is not “something about God” as if God has less than a perfect purpose in doing what He does. He and His purpose had to always be perfect.
 
mdcpensive1 said:
Something about God? If you read about the story of salvation in the bible you will find that humans will ultimately be above the level of the angels by being made sons and daughters of God. This means that we will ultimately have a physical and spiritual being that will know the beatific vision. The angels will only be spiritual beings. They cannot receive communion with the creator and can only “be”. This is the story that some people proposed in that now the angels serve humans but in the end humans will be above angels. By not doing this, pride entered into their consciousness and did not choose God based upon His Will. So the story goes, and makes some sense.
It is not “something about God” as if God has less than a perfect purpose in doing what He does. He and His purpose had to always be perfect.
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Yes, but when we get to heaven and experience the beatific vision, we too, will be spiritual beings, as it is impossible for someones body to enter into Heaven (except for Jesus, Mary, and Enoch, Ezekiel), everyone else will be spirits.

what other reason could there be for that many angels (who are much more intelligent than we are) to choose satan over God? What did they know that made them choose Satan? something must have weighed in favor of satan to them…?
 
mikekle said:
Yes, but when we get to heaven and experience the beatific vision, we too, will be spiritual beings, as it is impossible for someones body to enter into Heaven (except for Jesus, Mary, and Enoch, Ezekiel), everyone else will be spirits.
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This is contrary to Church teaching.

CCC said:
988 The Christian Creed - the profession of our faith in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and in God’s creative, saving, and sanctifying action - culminates in the proclamation of the resurrection of the dead on the last day and in life everlasting.
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what other reason could there be for that many angels (who are much more intelligent than we are) to choose satan over God?
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I don’t believe any human knows.
What did they know that made them choose Satan?
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Why do you think knowledge was a factor?
something must have weighed in favor of satan to them…?
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Pride?
 
mikekle said:
Yes, but when we get to heaven and experience the beatific vision, we too, will be spiritual beings, as it is impossible for someones body to enter into Heaven (except for Jesus, Mary, and Enoch, Ezekiel), everyone else will be spirits.

what other reason could there be for that many angels (who are much more intelligent than we are) to choose satan over God? What did they know that made them choose Satan? something must have weighed in favor of satan to them…?
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Forgive me if I was not clear in my writing. What I was trying to say is that after the second coming of Christ we will have glorified bodies and in a sense be on a higher level than the angels. This could be the straw that broke the camels back so to speak in that angels are now serving us and yet God will raise us higher than they are.

You must remember that the “test” for angels and ourselves did not allow us to have the beatific vision that angels now enjoy and we will in the future. I hope this helps ?? Let me know.
 
I hear so much about demons tempting and leading people away from Christ, but for my wife and I, it was a demonic encounter that led me back to the Church after 25 yrs and led my wife of no religion into the Church. I can promise you after that we have no doubt about heaven and hell and are home to stay!!
 
Christopher1111 said:
I hear so much about demons tempting and leading people away from Christ, but for my wife and I, it was a demonic encounter that led me back to the Church after 25 yrs and led my wife of no religion into the Church. I can promise you after that we have no doubt about heaven and hell and are home to stay!!
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Thanks be to the Lord!
 
Christopher1111 said:
I hear so much about demons tempting and leading people away from Christ, but for my wife and I, it was a demonic encounter that led me back to the Church after 25 yrs and led my wife of no religion into the Church. I can promise you after that we have no doubt about heaven and hell and are home to stay!!
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Love to hear your story.
 
mikekle said:
Yes, but when we get to heaven and experience the beatific vision, we too, will be spiritual beings, as it is impossible for someones body to enter into Heaven (except for Jesus, Mary, and Enoch, Ezekiel), everyone else will be spirits.
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Not so. In the General Resurrection everyone will receive a glorified body like the one Jesus had after His own Resurrection. Otherwise there would be no point in a Resurrection, we could just go on floating about as disembodied spirits for eternity.
what other reason could there be for that many angels (who are much more intelligent than we are) to choose satan over God? What did they know that made them choose Satan? something must have weighed in favor of satan to them…?
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The usual explanation is that they were made to serve, but did not want to. Whether that means “serve God” or “serve humans” or both varies, since very little about the Fall of the angels has actually been revealed to us.

The notion that the fallen angels must know something (presumably something bad) about God that He is keeping from us is … kind of creepy. What do we do then with the equally intelligent and twice as numerous loyal angels?

You and Robertanthony seem willing to accept all sorts of Scriptural and Traditional assertions with no problem – that there is a God, that it is the Christian God, that angels exist and a third of them fell – but not assertions from the same sources that God is good and loving. Why is that?

Usagi
 
Usagi said:
You and Robertanthony seem willing to accept all sorts of Scriptural and Traditional assertions with no problem – that there is a God, that it is the Christian God, that angels exist and a third of them fell – but not assertions from the same sources that God is good and loving. Why is that?

Usagi
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One answer can be the desire to believe in some conspiracy theories. Another one is that we all hold opinions and we don’t like it when others tell us we are wrong or we look wrong when it is disproven. It builds up a resistance to reason which we have to overcome when we look for the truth.
Usagi, you have asked a good question that I even have to ask myself sometimes…

I look forward to the answer from mikekle also.
 
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