Demons

[GodCommands]

Can anything else be more powerful against evil than being in the state of grace? So IMO it must be a correct reason why holy water is in the same category as crucifixes and medals, not above them. And superstition based on various hocus-pocus doesn’t exclude the use of holy water (or other sacramentals) perceived as one more magic tool - on the contrary

I don’t know much at all, after reading the arguments presented, obviously… but the above only makes PURE sense to me. Any sacrament is useful if it strengthens one’s faith. Right??

 

[GodCommands]

For instance, I wear a crucifix, but am protestant. Why? the power of Christ on the cross… to me, if nothing else, empowers my faith. And, in the end, is that not what truly rids one of evil?

 

[Faith1960]

The CCC says this, below, but doesn’t say that those performing exorcisms are required to have the afflicted medically and mentaly evaluated prior to the exorcism.

I also read that those performing exorcisms are advised to take psychology courses, to better ascertain if the events are truly demonic or if mental illness is the cause of the afflicted’s problem. If suggesting that the priest learn to distinguish between demonic activity and mental illness, it sounds to me like exorcists are advised to have medical and mental evaluations done first, but that it’s not a requirement by the CC.

So, my question is, are exorcists required by the CC to have medical evaluations, physical and mental evaluations done on the afflicted before an exorcism is performed or not? According to the authors of “Catholicism Answer Book” and “Catholicism For Dummies” medical and mental evaluations must be done first before an exorcist is “allowed to get involved,” but other things I’ve read sound like it’s more of a suggestion than a requirement.

<<<<<<<< Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter: treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness (cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1172)."
Catechism of the Catholic Church (n. 1673) >>>>>>>>

 

[vames]

For instance, I wear a crucifix, but am protestant. Why? the power of Christ on the cross… to me, if nothing else, empowers my faith. And, in the end, is that not what truly rids one of evil?

Exactly!
John 12:

31 Now is the judgment of the world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.
33 (Now this he said, signifying what death he should die.)

 

[Porknpie]

Watch at least the first 30 minutes of The Journey Home with Kelly Nieto. It’s one of the most moving episodes that the show has had…and shows how evil can manifest itself.

Link here

Pork

 

[R_C]

I know that medical evaluations should be done prior to an exorcism, but does the CC require medical evaluations or do some clergy perform them without following that?

Some members of the clergy are themselves psychiatrists.

In any case, it would be hardly possible for a priest to have the certitude of possession unless he has first directed the person to be subject to medical examination. In short: possession is very hard to diagnose, it is a very rare thing, and amidst those rare occasions, it so happens that sometimes it is evident that it is not a matter of mental illness even without direct medical evaluation. I would mention one such example, but you probably wouldn’t believe me.

Well, then what about the Eucharist? If “holy water is more than a sacramental, it is a means to drive away evil itself” and if it’s “the only direct means given to fight the spiritual warfare”, then why didn’t the Church make the aspersion a sacrament? A person is in the state of grace only after being baptized (when the parents or the catechumens explicitly “reject Satan and all his works” - and if a child is in danger of death, anyone can validly administer the baptism, using simple unblessed water) and regains the state of grace only after receiving the Eucharist. Can anything else be more powerful against evil than being in the state of grace? So IMO it must be a correct reason why holy water is in the same category as crucifixes and medals, not above them. And superstition based on various hocus-pocus doesn’t exclude the use of holy water (or other sacramentals) perceived as one more magic tool - on the contrary

I did not intend that Holy Water is the only means given to fight spiritual warfare. I was making a general statement, referring to the disbelief of the world (and within the Church) that Christ endowed those who share in the priesthood of Christ through the Holy Orders with authority to drive away demons from places and people, and to consecrate sacramental to aid in this ministry. Baptism does involve the use of exorcised salt and the exorcism of the person being baptized, although the sacrament retains its validity in its most basic form (just like one can theoretically mess up most of a Holy Mass and the bread of life shall be consecrated if the priest says the correct form of the Canon and particularly the correct words of consecration). Holy water is above crucifixes and medals inasmuch as it is employed in the rites for the blessing of crucifixes and medals, as well as most rites in the De Benedictionibus (Book of Blessings). Superstition is present when we attribute to an object a special power in and of itself. Sacramentals are channels of grace. I will give you an example: when an exorcist priest drives away a demon, who is driving away the demon? A superstitious response would be: the exorcist. When a saint performs a miracle, say a healing, who did the miracle? A superstitious response would be: the saint.

But you said a great truth: nothing is more powerful against evil than the state of grace. One characteristic of sacramentals (particularly holy water, which is why it is found at the entrance of every Church) is to help us be cleansed of venial sins and be strengthened in sanctifying grace. Sacramentals in themselves are useless without the Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist and Reconciliation, one the source and summit of our life, the other the ordinary means to restore sanctifying grace.

For instance, I wear a crucifix, but am protestant. Why? the power of Christ on the cross… to me, if nothing else, empowers my faith. And, in the end, is that not what truly rids one of evil?

Well, I would argue that out of the three (faith, hope, and love) the greatest remains love. It is love that drives away evil, in fact a loving gaze can terrorize a demon. This is one reason why family members are present during exorcism: demons seem to be greatly distressed by the gaze of a mother or a wife over the person they are disturbing, because they perceive the intense love they feel, and in it, they see a reflection of God’s immense, infinite love for the person - that love to whom they have renounced. Yes indeed, the icon of a crucifix does strengthen our faith, at least. But sacramentals are more than icons: they are consecrated items. Sort of like the mud that the Lord put on the blind man’s eyes!

 

[Faith1960]

Some members of the clergy are themselves psychiatrists.

In any case, it would be hardly possible for a priest to have the certitude of possession unless he has first directed the person to be subject to medical examination. In short: possession is very hard to diagnose, it is a very rare thing, and amidst those rare occasions, it so happens that sometimes it is evident that it is not a matter of mental illness even without direct medical evaluation. I would mention one such example, but you probably wouldn’t believe me.

I did not intend that Holy Water is the only means given to fight spiritual warfare. I was making a general statement, referring to the disbelief of the world (and within the Church) that Christ endowed those who share in the priesthood of Christ through the Holy Orders with authority to drive away demons from places and people, and to consecrate sacramental to aid in this ministry. Baptism does involve the use of exorcised salt and the exorcism of the person being baptized, although the sacrament retains its validity in its most basic form (just like one can theoretically mess up most of a Holy Mass and the bread of life shall be consecrated if the priest says the correct form of the Canon and particularly the correct words of consecration). Holy water is above crucifixes and medals inasmuch as it is employed in the rites for the blessing of crucifixes and medals, as well as most rites in the De Benedictionibus (Book of Blessings). Superstition is present when we attribute to an object a special power in and of itself. Sacramentals are channels of grace. I will give you an example: when an exorcist priest drives away a demon, who is driving away the demon? A superstitious response would be: the exorcist. When a saint performs a miracle, say a healing, who did the miracle? A superstitious response would be: the saint.

But you said a great truth: nothing is more powerful against evil than the state of grace. One characteristic of sacramentals (particularly holy water, which is why it is found at the entrance of every Church) is to help us be cleansed of venial sins and be strengthened in sanctifying grace. Sacramentals in themselves are useless without the Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist and Reconciliation, one the source and summit of our life, the other the ordinary means to restore sanctifying grace.

Well, I would argue that out of the three (faith, hope, and love) the greatest remains love. It is love that drives away evil, in fact a loving gaze can terrorize a demon. This is one reason why family members are present during exorcism: demons seem to be greatly distressed by the gaze of a mother or a wife over the person they are disturbing, because they perceive the intense love they feel, and in it, they see a reflection of God’s immense, infinite love for the person - that love to whom they have renounced. Yes indeed, the icon of a crucifix does strengthen our faith, at least. But sacramentals are more than icons: they are consecrated items. Sort of like the mud that the Lord put on the blind man’s eyes!

I’m glad you mentioned that possession is rare. I was getting the feeling that many people here think it’s very common.

Can you give some examples of clergy who are psychiatrists?

And again, are medical and psychiatric evaluations required by the Church before doing an exorcism?

 

[Dorothy]

I am glad to hear that full possession is rare.

But, then there are obsessed people, and those with deep-rooted habitual sin that need deliverance.

Many are aware of that problem in themselves, but do not pray much and need a jump-start from caring Christians.

 

[Faith1960]

Watch at least the first 30 minutes of The Journey Home with Kelly Nieto. It’s one of the most moving episodes that the show has had…and shows how evil can manifest itself.

Link here

Pork

I was able to watch some of the video but it froze up on me.

 

[Faith1960]

I’m glad you mentioned that possession is rare. I was getting the feeling that many people here think it’s very common.

Can you give some examples of clergy who are psychiatrists?

And again, are medical and psychiatric evaluations required by the Church before doing an exorcism?

According to the CCC, “illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.”

It doesn’t sound to me as if it’s required by the Church that physical and mental illnesses are to be ruled out by medical experts, but that it’s recommended.

If the Church isn’t required to consult medical and psychiatric experts prior to performing an exorcism, how do we know all exorcists follow that recommendation?

Sort of going back to my original question: The Church says that true possession is very rare, so why is it that Jesus and the apostles cast out so many demons in the NT? And how do we know they weren’t mentally ill?

 

[Porknpie]

I was able to watch some of the video but it froze up on me.

What browser are you using? If Internet Explorer, try Firefox…and make sure your video drivers are up to date…or simply try again…

 

[R_C]

Sort of going back to my original question: The Church says that true possession is very rare, so why is it that Jesus and the apostles cast out so many demons in the NT? And how do we know they weren’t mentally ill?

Because it was more common back then.

And because Christ and the apostles were neither liars, nor idiots. If they stated that they casted out demons, and if we see that they even address some of them and they respond, then we would have a problem if we insist denying facts.

Notice the difference between the demon that was deaf and mute (meaning it would neither reply to the apostles nor listen to their command to depart) and required either prayer and fasting on their side or - as it happened - the direct command of the Lord to depart…and the fever of Peter’s mother in law, where the Lord does not address a demon, but, instead, “commands the fever to depart”, using a similar terminology but clearly stating it was an illness, not a demon. Even in several cases we see the Lord healing blind and mute people but as sick people, not as possessed people.

The Church does not make such consultation a requirement because it could well be that no psychiatrist is available in circumstances where an exorcism is needed - not all countries in the world are as the one we live in - and if the priest can be certain through the spiritual means that he is dealing with a demon, he must have the faculty to proceed regardless. Remember that if he makes a mistake and it is only a mental illness, either the patient will experience no effect whatsoever, or he may experience a placebo effect diminishing the symptoms of his illness (though it will be obvious to the priest that it is no possession).

 

[Faith1960]

Because it was more common back then.

And because Christ and the apostles were neither liars, nor idiots. If they stated that they casted out demons, and if we see that they even address some of them and they respond, then we would have a problem if we insist denying facts.

Notice the difference between the demon that was deaf and mute (meaning it would neither reply to the apostles nor listen to their command to depart) and required either prayer and fasting on their side or - as it happened - the direct command of the Lord to depart…and the fever of Peter’s mother in law, where the Lord does not address a demon, but, instead, “commands the fever to depart”, using a similar terminology but clearly stating it was an illness, not a demon. Even in several cases we see the Lord healing blind and mute people but as sick people, not as possessed people.

The Church does not make such consultation a requirement because it could well be that no psychiatrist is available in circumstances where an exorcism is needed - not all countries in the world are as the one we live in - and if the priest can be certain through the spiritual means that he is dealing with a demon, he must have the faculty to proceed regardless. Remember that if he makes a mistake and it is only a mental illness, either the patient will experience no effect whatsoever, or he may experience a placebo effect diminishing the symptoms of his illness (though it will be obvious to the priest that it is no possession).

According to mental health professionals, drivng out demons in those who are actually mentally ill can reinforce their delusions.

 

[John_of_Woking]

For goodness sake. For These demon doubters…READ THE CATECHISM. This is your Faith. Believe in the Gospel. This is WAR. Spiritual warfare

 

[Faith1960]

Because it was more common back then.

And because Christ and the apostles were neither liars, nor idiots. If they stated that they casted out demons, and if we see that they even address some of them and they respond, then we would have a problem if we insist denying facts.

Notice the difference between the demon that was deaf and mute (meaning it would neither reply to the apostles nor listen to their command to depart) and required either prayer and fasting on their side or - as it happened - the direct command of the Lord to depart…and the fever of Peter’s mother in law, where the Lord does not address a demon, but, instead, “commands the fever to depart”, using a similar terminology but clearly stating it was an illness, not a demon. Even in several cases we see the Lord healing blind and mute people but as sick people, not as possessed people.

The Church does not make such consultation a requirement because it could well be that no psychiatrist is available in circumstances where an exorcism is needed - not all countries in the world are as the one we live in - and if the priest can be certain through the spiritual means that he is dealing with a demon, he must have the faculty to proceed regardless. Remember that if he makes a mistake and it is only a mental illness, either the patient will experience no effect whatsoever, or he may experience a placebo effect diminishing the symptoms of his illness (though it will be obvious to the priest that it is no possession).

Why was it more common in Biblical times?

 

[Faith1960]

For goodness sake. For These demon doubters…READ THE CATECHISM. This is your Faith. Believe in the Gospel. This is WAR. Spiritual warfare

Demon possession is very rare according to every Catholic source, and even the CCC warns against confusing mental illness with demon possession.

The question remains, if those people in the NT were truly possessed, why was demonic possession much more common than now?

 

[R_C]

According to mental health professionals, drivng out demons in those who are actually mentally ill can reinforce their delusions.

True in some cases.

What is the point you are trying to make? This is only a forum. Nothing is going to change.

You found a reason to disbelief and you are holding on to it. I and others presented you not with superstitious arguments, but with references to verifiable and respectable sources, showing how there is an effort to collaborate with a branch of science developed in the last century or so.

As for the rest, the Church would rather help someone who thinks is subject to some demonic suggestion than abandon them prey of superstition. This sort of care involves prayer, advice to lead a virtuous life, and direction to visit doctors for treatment - often given to family members as well, if present. It is very, very difficult for someone to receive an actual exorcism. Priests are very skeptical on these matters. I would be more concerned about the availability of superstitious resources that go unnoticed and without any sort of regulation.

Not everything out there is the work of fallen angels, and some could go as far as to argue that all evil is work of human hands, but we know there are spiritual intelligent beings, and we know that some of them are against us. For some religions, these evil spirits are divinities, or the traits of a God who is not All Holy, or even something necessary for the balance of the universe (we hear lots of this latter nonsense nowadays). For us, they are merely disobedient creatures exercising their free will. If they can affect men, it is because men either ignore them or allow them to influence them. Some even seek their help, or seek to serve them.

This is not strange. Among humans, too, there are some powerful people who do not do God’s will, and some men consider them a la pair with divinities. They, too, do evil, and have followers, but no exorcism can drive them away. After all, they are men in need of redemption, not angels awaiting condemnation.

Disbelief in the spiritual world is not a solution to any problem, and is not healthy either, for we are beings both of body and spirit. A healthy balance discerns an equilibrium between both, without focusing too much on either. Priests help bring people towards that healthy equilibrium, not to push them away from it. Errors can always be made. They can also be made by doctors who, confusing laicity with atheism, can attribute everything to the body and ignore our spiritual needs.

Psychosomatics teaches us that some illnesses of the body are not healed (solely) by treating the body. Mental peace is significantly relevant, and part of that peace is found in having a healthy relationship with oneself, with others, and with God. I can’t find a better instruction on this matter than: “love God with your whole heart and your neighbor like yourself, or as much as God loves you”. For that is a recipe for a virtuous life, one that does not chain or enslave, but rather liberates. Religion then - our relationship with God - becomes important in our physical and psychological health, and understanding the existence of a supernatural realm and place it where it fits in the puzzle is important in order to avoid falling down the wrong track, a track of either an act of faith in the nonexistence of something, or one of superstition. For ultimately the true problem is not the devil, but evil. The devil and demons are just creatures that chose to do evil. The real problem is evil.

I am still reading the encyclical on faith written by Pope Francis and Pope Benedict, presented the same day in which a monument was blessed representing the prince of the angels, st. Michael, crushing the prince of the world, Satan, and the hand of Christ Crucified on top of the world with the phrase: “the gates of Hell shall not prevail”. There is a correlation between this event and the encyclical on faith. This Pope has been quite outspoken on the topic of evil in the world, and he is known to be a practical man who has lived a very simple existence, still managing to serve the needy and to lead the Church up to the See of Peter. I post some quotes that show how he relates evil, the devil, and the cross.

 

[R_C]

[This] indeed is not just a celebrative artwork, but an invitation to reflection and prayer …] Michael - which means: “Who is like God?” - is the champion of God’s primacy and of His transcendence and might. Michael fights to restore divine justice; defends the People of God from their enemies and above all else from the enemy of excellence, the devil. And saint Michael wins because in him it is God who acts.

This sculpture recalls to us then that evil is defeated, the accuser unmasked, his head crushed, because salvation is accomplished one for all in the blood of Christ. Even if the devil always tries to deface the face of the Archangel and the face of man, God is stronger; victory is His, and His salvation is offered to every man.

In the walk and trials of life we are not alone, we are accompanied and sustained by the Angels of God, that offer, so to speak, their wings to help us overcome many dangers, to be able to fly high over those realities that can render our life heavy or drag us down.

In consecrating the State of Vatican City to Saint Michael Archangel, we ask him to defend us from the Evil One and to cast him out.

…] (addressing the clergy) We can walk as much we want, we can build many things, but if we do not confess Jesus Christ, nothing will avail…When one does not walk, one stalls…When one does not profess Jesus Christ - I recall the phrase of Leon Bloy – “Whoever does not pray to God, prays to the devil.” When one does not profess Jesus Christ, one professes the worldliness of the devil…The same Peter who confessed Jesus Christ, says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. I will follow you, but let us not speak of the Cross. This has nothing to do with it.” He says, “I’ll follow you on other ways, that do not include the Cross.” When we walk without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord.

…]Please, I would like to ask all those who have positions of responsibility in economic, political and social life, and all men and women of goodwill: let us be “protectors” of creation, protectors of God’s plan inscribed in nature, protectors of one another and of the environment …] But to be “protectors”, we also have to keep watch over ourselves! Let us not forget that hatred, envy and pride defile our lives! Being protectors, then, also means keeping watch over our emotions, over our hearts, because they are the seat of good and evil intentions …]

And here the first word that I wish to say to you: joy! Do not be men and women of sadness: a Christian can never be sad! Never give way to discouragement! Ours is not a joy born of having many possessions, but from having encountered a Person: Jesus, in our midst; it is born from knowing that with him we are never alone, even at difficult moments, even when our life’s journey comes up against problems and obstacles that seem insurmountable, and there are so many of them! And in this moment the enemy, the devil, comes, often disguised as an angel, and slyly speaks his word to us. Do not listen to him! Let us follow Jesus! We accompany, we follow Jesus, but above all we know that he accompanies us and carries us on his shoulders. This is our joy, this is the hope that we must bring to this world. …]

Benedict XVI said to the Cardinals: you are princes, but of a king crucified. That is the throne of Jesus. Jesus takes it upon himself… Why the Cross? Because Jesus takes upon himself the evil, the filth, the sin of the world, including the sin of all of us, and he cleanses it…Let us look around: how many wounds are inflicted upon humanity by evil! Wars, violence, economic conflicts that hit the weakest, greed for money that you can’t take with you and have to leave…Jesus on the Cross feels the whole weight of the evil, and with the force of God’s love he conquers it, he defeats it with his resurrection. …] you are not ashamed of his Cross! On the contrary, you embrace it, because you have understood that it is in giving ourselves, in giving ourselves, in emerging from ourselves that we have true joy and that, with his love, God conquered evil.

…] We need to “go out”, then, in order to experience our own anointing, its power and its redemptive efficacy: to the “outskirts” where there is suffering, bloodshed, blindness that longs for sight, and prisoners in thrall to many evil masters.

…] Jesus is the everlasting “today” of God. This is how the newness of God appears to the women, the disciples and all of us: as victory over sin, evil and death, over everything that crushes life and makes it seem less human.

…] If we want to take the path of worldliness, bargaining with the world…we will never have the consolation of the Lord. And if we seek consolation alone, it will be a superficial consolation, not the Lord’s consolation, but a human consolation. The Church always advances between the cross and the resurrection, between persecutions and the consolations of the Lord. This is the path: those who take this path do not go wrong.

…] The Bible shows us the human drama in all its reality: good and evil, passion, sin and its consequences. Whenever we want to assert ourselves, when we become wrapped up in our own selfishness and put ourselves in the place of God, we end up spawning death…Selfishness leads to lies, as we attempt to deceive ourselves and those around us. But God cannot be deceived… What is the image we have of God? Perhaps he appears to us as a severe judge, as someone who curtails our freedom and the way we live our lives. But the Scriptures everywhere tell us that God is the Living One, the one who bestows life and points the way to fullness of life.

 

[Faith1960]

True in some cases.

What is the point you are trying to make? This is only a forum. Nothing is going to change.

You found a reason to disbelief and you are holding on to it. I and others presented you not with superstitious arguments, but with references to verifiable and respectable sources, showing how there is an effort to collaborate with a branch of science developed in the last century or so.

As for the rest, the Church would rather help someone who thinks is subject to some demonic suggestion than abandon them prey of superstition. This sort of care involves prayer, advice to lead a virtuous life, and direction to visit doctors for treatment - often given to family members as well, if present. It is very, very difficult for someone to receive an actual exorcism. Priests are very skeptical on these matters. I would be more concerned about the availability of superstitious resources that go unnoticed and without any sort of regulation.

Not everything out there is the work of fallen angels, and some could go as far as to argue that all evil is work of human hands, but we know there are spiritual intelligent beings, and we know that some of them are against us. For some religions, these evil spirits are divinities, or the traits of a God who is not All Holy, or even something necessary for the balance of the universe (we hear lots of this latter nonsense nowadays). For us, they are merely disobedient creatures exercising their free will. If they can affect men, it is because men either ignore them or allow them to influence them. Some even seek their help, or seek to serve them.

This is not strange. Among humans, too, there are some powerful people who do not do God’s will, and some men consider them a la pair with divinities. They, too, do evil, and have followers, but no exorcism can drive them away. After all, they are men in need of redemption, not angels awaiting condemnation.

Disbelief in the spiritual world is not a solution to any problem, and is not healthy either, for we are beings both of body and spirit. A healthy balance discerns an equilibrium between both, without focusing too much on either. Priests help bring people towards that healthy equilibrium, not to push them away from it. Errors can always be made. They can also be made by doctors who, confusing laicity with atheism, can attribute everything to the body and ignore our spiritual needs.

Psychosomatics teaches us that some illnesses of the body are not healed (solely) by treating the body. Mental peace is significantly relevant, and part of that peace is found in having a healthy relationship with oneself, with others, and with God. I can’t find a better instruction on this matter than: “love God with your whole heart and your neighbor like yourself, or as much as God loves you”. For that is a recipe for a virtuous life, one that does not chain or enslave, but rather liberates. Religion then - our relationship with God - becomes important in our physical and psychological health, and understanding the existence of a supernatural realm and place it where it fits in the puzzle is important in order to avoid falling down the wrong track, a track of either an act of faith in the nonexistence of something, or one of superstition. For ultimately the true problem is not the devil, but evil. The devil and demons are just creatures that chose to do evil. The real problem is evil.

I am still reading the encyclical on faith written by Pope Francis and Pope Benedict, presented the same day in which a monument was blessed representing the prince of the angels, st. Michael, crushing the prince of the world, Satan, and the hand of Christ Crucified on top of the world with the phrase: “the gates of Hell shall not prevail”. There is a correlation between this event and the encyclical on faith. This Pope has been quite outspoken on the topic of evil in the world, and he is known to be a practical man who has lived a very simple existence, still managing to serve the needy and to lead the Church up to the See of Peter. I post some quotes that show how he relates evil, the devil, and the cross.

The point I’m trying to make is that I’m trying to understand this. Again WHY we’re there so many demons in Jesus’ time compared to today.

I really don’t know why I posted this thread in the first place. I post here as a means to learn despite my spiritual advisor and others warning me against it. I did send some PMs to a few from CAF who’ve helped me before. I’m eager to read all their replies.

 

[CaptFun]

For goodness sake. For These demon doubters…READ THE CATECHISM. This is your Faith. Believe in the Gospel. This is WAR. Spiritual warfare

Here! Here! (Always wanted to say that! An English fellow being spot on provided me my opportunity!). - Or is it “Hear! Hear!” ?

I’ve heard this stuff before. Sometimes going farther. Every miracle of the Bible must have a scientific explanation or its “superstition” or Jesus and the Apostles getting something wrong that " … WE now know to be ______ – instead of what they thought!"

Especially favorite targets for these “new theologians” are: sin, the devil, hell, purgatory, confession, exorcism, and people who “still” believe in miracles.

Jesus was just a particularly cool philosopher, who if alive today would be saying JUST the same things the “new theologians*” do on these subjects.

• new theologians = as new as “right now!” in some cases. Old and orthodox = bad, stupid, superstitious. That old stuff. What’re you stuck in the Middle Ages?

Jesus and St. Paul tell us to put on some armor, take a sword and be ready for the spiritual battles.

When Jesus says turn the other cheek, and in another place, offer no resistance to the evil man, it is not to have us join the enemy in doing evil but rather “overcoming evil with good.”

READ the Catechism is such good advice. I wince in astonishment when I hear an otherwise faithful Catholic goof up the most basic doctrines out loud. uch:

From the Catechism:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/index/d.htm

Demon
apostles and their power to cast out, 1506
Baptism as renunciation of the devil, 1237
deliverance from the Devil, 2850, 2853-54
exorcisms for casting out, 517, 550, 1237, 1673
fallen angels, 391, 392, 414
idolatry and recourse to, 2113, 2116-17
Jesus and His power over, 421, 447, 539, 550, 566, 635-36, 1086, 1708
Jesus and temptations of the Devil, 538-40, 566, 2119
man’s struggle against the power of darkness, 407, 409
meaning and etymology of the word “Devil,” 2851
origin of evil, 397, 413, 1707, 2583, 2851
works of the Devil, 394-95, 398, 28

Exorcism
in the celebration of Baptism, 1237
significance and purposes of exorcism and its modes of performance, 1673
significance of Jesus’, 517, 550

Hell
the Church’s teaching on, 1036
as the consequence of the continual rejection of God, 1034
definition of, 1033-34
eternal separation from God as hell’s chief punishment, 1035
as the free and willful turning away from God, 1037
mortal sin as the cause of eternal death, 1861

Penance
forms of penance in the Christian life, 1434-39
interior, 1430-33
purposes of, 2043
works of penance for the dead, 1032

Penance and Reconciliation
age for confessing sins, 1457
Anointing of the Sick and the forgiveness of sins, 1532
and Baptism, 1425-26
Baptism and the forgiveness of sins, 535, 977-78
commandment to receive the sacrament of, 1457, 2042
eschatological significance of the sacrament of, 1470
the Eucharist and forgiveness of sins, 1393, 1395, 1436, 1846
indulgence, 1471
power to confer the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation to non-Catholic Christians, 1401
purposes of the sacrament of, 1421, 1468
receiving absolution in the sacrament before receiving Eucharistic Communion, 1415
receiving the sacrament before the celebration of Matrimony, 1622
as a sacrament, 1210
sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation in particularly grave cases, 1463
instituted by Christ, 1446
instituted for all men, 827, 1446
sacramental seal of Confession, 1467, 2490
sacrifice of Christ as the source of forgiveness of man’s sins, 1851
See also Sacrament(s)

absolution, 1480-84
Byzantine liturgy and formulas of, 1481
communal celebration and individual, 1482
excommunication and, 1463
formulas of, 1449, 1481
general, 1483
grave sins and, 1415, 1457, 1497
over the dying Christian, 1020
power to forgive sins, 553, 976, 1441-42, 1444-45, 1461

forgiveness and Penance and Reconciliation
the Church as a place of reconciliation, 755
God reconciles the world to Himself in Christ, 433
pardon as the fundamental condition of Reconciliation, 2844
reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of Christ’s Church, 822
reconciliation with the Church, 1443-45
ways of reconciliation, 981, 1449, 1455
See also Forgiveness: forgiveness of sins

liturgical celebration or rite of the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation
actions of the penitent (see Penance and Reconciliation: acts of the penitent)
actions of the priest, 1491
changes in liturgical celebration of the sacrament of Penance over the centuries, 1447-48
communal, 1482-83
fundamental structure, 1448, 1480
minister of, 1461-62, 1466

necessity of the sacrament
for receiving the other sacraments, 1385
for Reconciliation with God and with the Church, 1484
for recovering the grace of justification, 1446
for obtaining forgiveness of mortal sins, 1395

titles for the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation
sacrament of Confession, 1424, 1455-58
conversion, 1423
forgiveness, 1395, 1424, 1446
pardon, 1422
Penance, 1423
Reconciliation, 1385, 1424, 1440
remission, 1496

Maybe just the sheer volume of the INDEX of the Catechism will help.

Again: to your gracious entreaties to avail oneself of the Catechism’s theological counsels
may I add: Quite right! Carry On!