Denial of Hell

[ProdglArchitect]

Thank you. Just giving a quick scan

The topic demands more than a quick scan, it demands study and consideration.

here is a question. Why would a person want to spend eternity with a being that, in a story, killed off the world population except for eight people?

God is the author of life. He has the right to give it and to take it as He sees fit. You seem to be forgetting that, in that “story,” the world was wicked and Godless. You probably don’t have an adequate understanding of what that means, because you’ve never actually experienced it. We have some inkling of what that must have been like based on archaeological discoveries we’ve made. Mass graves filled with the discarded remains of human sacrifices. The dead bodies of children with their heads smashed in. We have accounts in the Bible of post-flood cultures who sacrificed children to Baal, and where rape. Heck, even cultures as recent as the Roman culture engaged in incredibly perverse and immoral sexual practices, including sexual relations with young children, rampant rape, widespread fornication, “religious” prostitution… the list goes on and on. Given that God did not chose to wipe out those cultures through a world-wide cataclysm, it is safe to presume that the societies which were wiped out in the flood narrative were far worse.

So yeah, do I want to worship the God who enacted His prerogative over life and death to end world-wide wickedness and present a righteous man with the chance to rebuild? Yeah, i think i do.

It still brings up free will which has all kinds of problems. If god is omniscient surely god would have seen the “fall” and stopped its pet project from going down the tubes.

Why would He have? He chose to create us, even knowing that some of us, even many of us, would reject Him. However, He also knew that many of us would embrace Him, and spend eternity with Him. Why should the righteous have been denied the glory of God’s eternal creation because some people would rather worship themselves than Him?

Personally I see the story of the Garden of Eden as the ancient Hebrews explaining how they came about. It is a creation story for them and why they had to work hard to get food.

It is far, far more than a creation account, and details God’s relationship with Humanity.

 

[MT1926]

Actually no. That isn’t the conclusion to my question at all. The free will bit seems like a cop out. Think about this please; in the story of the Garden of Eden god put in a tree that had fruit of knowledge growing on it. It made one person out of mud. This person had no experiences nor could the person know “right” from “wrong”. The person was just given an order like a computer program. God then took a clone of the person, made the clone transgendered and placed the clone with the first person. Still neither of the “people” knew right from wrong because that was part of the tree so how could they have free will? You have two machines doing tasks because they were programmed to do them.

I never understand why people always go to the free will bit is a cop out. Why do you think free will is a cop out? I couldn’t imagine going through life, and eternity, having to only do what someone else tells me. Can you?

I think you might need to study your Bible a little more. Your Interpretation of Genesis is definitely one that I have never heard before?

You identify as Catholic, but I am guessing you are having a difficult time right now and you are searching for truth. Using words like clone and transgender as Biblical interpretations makes it seem like you might be upset or having difficulties with something. Also, if you were never taught the G in God is always capitalized regardless of where it is in a sentence. I’m not trying to be nit picky, but I’m hoping you do feel God deserves all the love and respect we can give him, regardless of how difficult our lives are at the present moment.

You can only find truth with an open heart and an open mind. I tried to give you some solid truth on the subject of Hell. You don’t have to accept what I have written, but I am not here to argue and I do have your best interests at heart. All I ask is you consider what I have written.

I reread my response and I do apologize for this statement, it seems I have offended you.

Let me finish your statement. Why would an “All Loving” god make a place of torment? A place of “eternal fires”. Wouldn’t an “All Loving” God force us against our free will to worship him for all eternity? That is the conclusion to your question.

What I meant to say was "Let me finish what I read from you statement…This would be the only possible answer I could foresee to solve your question.

I am more than willing to continue the dialogue with an open mind. If you could give me some sound reasons why you think someone would spend 50 years of their life never giving God a second of their day but want to spend eternity with him? I am willing to listen.

Do you have any thoughts on my second response.

Your final question: What finite crime here on earth is deserving of eternal punishment?

The answer is simple, not a single thing we do here on earth, no matter how terrible, is deserving of eternal punishment in Hell. Jesus died on the cross to cleanse us of any sin we commit. However, we have to go to confession and ask for his forgiveness in this lifetime.

 

[Dorothy]

Actually no. That isn’t the conclusion to my question at all. The free will bit seems like a cop out. Think about this please; in the story of the Garden of Eden god put in a tree that had fruit of knowledge growing on it. It made one person out of mud. This person had no experiences nor could the person know “right” from “wrong”. The person was just given an order like a computer program. God then took a clone of the person, made the clone transgendered and placed the clone with the first person. Still neither of the “people” knew right from wrong because that was part of the tree so how could they have free will? You have two machines doing tasks because they were programmed to do them.

We have finite minds. God is infinite and knows all things.

The book of Genesis uses symbols to explain what happened. God, outside of time, already knew what the outcome would be.

The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity (Son) became man to show us the Way to the Father.

Jesus died willingly a horrific death to show His love for us. He rose from the dead and after His Ascension the Holy Spirit was sent.

That may sound over-simplified, but I hope it helped.

What you wrote above is you trying to define what God did.

We have a Church with God-given authority that cannot err with regard to faith and morals in its magisterial guidance.

Pray for wisdom every day.

 

[NM505StKate]

The topic demands more than a quick scan, it demands study and consideration.

I only gave it a quick scan because I can’t give it my full attention right away.

God is the author of life. He has the right to give it and to take it as He sees fit. You seem to be forgetting that, in that “story,” the world was wicked and Godless. You probably don’t have an adequate understanding of what that means, because you’ve never actually experienced it. We have some inkling of what that must have been like based on archaeological discoveries we’ve made. Mass graves filled with the discarded remains of human sacrifices. The dead bodies of children with their heads smashed in. We have accounts in the Bible of post-flood cultures who sacrificed children to Baal, and where rape. Heck, even cultures as recent as the Roman culture engaged in incredibly perverse and immoral sexual practices, including sexual relations with young children, rampant rape, widespread fornication, “religious” prostitution… the list goes on and on. Given that God did not chose to wipe out those cultures through a world-wide cataclysm, it is safe to presume that the societies which were wiped out in the flood narrative were far worse.

That would make sense only if you didn’t take into account the untold numbers of children and babies that were also wiped out for having done nothing “evil” or “wicked”. Also the flood never happened as there is no evidence for it.

So yeah, do I want to worship the God who enacted His prerogative over life and death to end world-wide wickedness and present a righteous man with the chance to rebuild? Yeah, i think i do.

Noah was righteous? The same man who cursed his son just for seeing him naked?

Why would He have? He chose to create us, even knowing that some of us, even many of us, would reject Him. However, He also knew that many of us would embrace Him, and spend eternity with Him. Why should the righteous have been denied the glory of God’s eternal creation because some people would rather worship themselves than Him?

It is far, far more than a creation account, and details God’s relationship with Humanity.

Strong disagree. Mostly due to there being little to no evidence any of it happened. Yes there are bits that did but for the most part no. We have to remember that the ancient Hebrews were polytheistic, we have evidence through archeology. Yahweh was, imo, a war god. Look at all the times he was called on, times of strife. Heck Yahweh was bested by iron chariots. The stories put in the old testament speak of a vengeful, spiteful war/volcano god that was super temperamental. Reading the old testament it is very hard to see why Yahweh would put up with people whom are so fickle until one remembers the time and place. They were pagans.

 

[mdgspencer]

The"Catechism of the Catholic Church" says that the Church and Scripture affirm the existence of hell. See the passage in the Catechism about this at vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P2O.HTM
If what the original poster said about some denying its existence’s true, they are actually refusing the teaching of the Church and of Scripture.
When some people say one thing and Scripture and the Church say quite the opposite on a religious subject, I think it safe to follow the Church and Scripture.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

It always makes me chuckle when a read an obituary in the newspaper and it says [the person] “went to be with the Lord…”.

I’m think “Are you sure? You’re 100% certain? What are you smoking and where can I get some?”

 

[punisherthunder]

I work with a number of Southern Baptists.

Slowly I am noticing a trend that they do not believe in Hell or the Devil. They tell me that God is so good, that he has triumphed all and no bad can exist. I tell them that Hell is mentioned more than Heaven by Jesus and that the Devil is acknowledged in the Bible, but I am quickly dismissed.

 

[NM505StKate]

I work with a number of Southern Baptists.

Slowly I am noticing a trend that they do not believe in Hell or the Devil. They tell me that God is so good, that he has triumphed all and no bad can exist. I tell them that Hell is mentioned more than Heaven by Jesus and that the Devil is acknowledged in the Bible, but I am quickly dismissed.

They kind of have a point. God is supposed to be all powerful and the perfection of good correct? In that case why would there be any way for evil to come into the world let alone a “head of evil” the devil be around? Think about it, god created everything correct? Which means god created the devil correct? So then since god is all knowing, which I assume is correct, god then knew the devil would tempt the first people in the garden of Eden and therefore let the fall happen.

 

[Dorothy]

They kind of have a point. God is supposed to be all powerful and the perfection of good correct? In that case why would there be any way for evil to come into the world let alone a “head of evil” the devil be around? Think about it, god created everything correct? Which means god created the devil correct? So then since god is all knowing, which I assume is correct, god then knew the devil would tempt the first people in the garden of Eden and therefore let the fall happen.

The angels were created good, and when given a test one-third of them rebelled with their free will.
Non-Servium…they would not serve God, but do what they wanted.

They are “on a leash” so to speak, and are not allowed to tempt us beyond our strength. I highly recommend Peter Kreeft’s book “Angels and Demons”. He answers many questions that make perfect sense since it is the theology of the Church. It would be good if that was thoroughly taught to our children.

I will look up a site I know about and share it with you after I find it.

When we resist the devil with the grace of our Lord…we grow stronger spiritually! Our Lord uses them to sanctify us!.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[NM505StKate]

The angels were created good, and when given a test one-third of them rebelled with their free will.
Non-Servium…they would not serve God, but do what they wanted.

They are “on a leash” so to speak, and are not allowed to tempt us beyond our strength. I highly recommend Peter Kreeft’s book “Angels and Demons”. He answers many questions that make perfect sense since it is the theology of the Church. It would be good if that was thoroughly taught to our children.

I will look up a site I know about and share it with you after I find it.

When we resist the devil with the grace of our Lord…we grow stronger spiritually! Our Lord uses them to sanctify us!.

Peace,

Dorothy

That makes no sense. Okay first question; Is god all knowing? If yes then god knew 1/3 of the angels would fail the test and let it happen. If no then why would god be all powerful, loving, merciful, just ect?

Them being “on a leash” makes less sense because why would a all loving supreme being that is perfect allow anything to harm its creation? More so a perfect being would only create perfection and this world is not perfect in any way.

 

[Dorothy]

They kind of have a point. God is supposed to be all powerful and the perfection of good correct? In that case why would there be any way for evil to come into the world let alone a “head of evil” the devil be around? Think about it, god created everything correct? Which means god created the devil correct? So then since god is all knowing, which I assume is correct, god then knew the devil would tempt the first people in the garden of Eden and therefore let the fall happen.

Here is a site about the angels. A lot to explore!

opusangelorum.org/catechesis/catechesis-dw.htm

 

[NM505StKate]

@Dorothy

That still makes no sense. God created angels and being all knowing knew one third of them would disobey. So god was willingly letting sin and misery into the lives of humans because of why?

 

[Dorothy]

That makes no sense. Okay first question; Is god all knowing? If yes then god knew 1/3 of the angels would fail the test and let it happen. If no then why would god be all powerful, loving, merciful, just ect?

Them being “on a leash” makes less sense because why would a all loving supreme being that is perfect allow anything to harm its creation? More so a perfect being would only create perfection and this world is not perfect in any way.

Yes, God is all-knowing and He is outside of time. He knew 1/3 of them would rebel with their free will.

No, this world is not perfect, but many people are striving to cooperate with the grace of God and are willing to suffer for Him, in imitation of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Much to the chagrin ( to put it humanly) of the fallen angels their temptations can be used to sanctify us!

We are finite. God is Infinite and He knows what He is about and He is Perfect Love. By the Precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ we are offered salvation. Will we freely choose to love Him back? Life and its sufferings are short…eternity is forever. Every moment is an opportunity to repent, pick up our cross, and follow Him. Better yet, allow Him to sanctify us so that the Body of Christ on earth can grow in holiness.

 

[Dorothy]

@Dorothy

That still makes no sense. God created angels and being all knowing knew one third of them would disobey. So god was willingly letting sin and misery into the lives of humans because of why?

The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity became Incarnate and to show His Love for us he died a horrific death, and then Rose from the dead. He, Jesus, gave us the teachings we need to know to grow into His likeness by picking up our cross and following Him.

I recommend you read the theology on the site I sent you, it can help you understand.
It also helps much to pray for understanding.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[NM505StKate]

Yes, God is all-knowing and He is outside of time. He knew 1/3 of them would rebel with their free will.

No, this world is not perfect, but many people are striving to cooperate with the grace of God and are willing to suffer for Him, in imitation of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Much to the chagrin ( to put it humanly) of the fallen angels their temptations can be used to sanctify us!

We are finite. God is Infinite and He knows what He is about and He is Perfect Love. By the Precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ we are offered salvation. Will we freely choose to love Him back? Life and its sufferings are short…eternity is forever. Every moment is an opportunity to repent, pick up our cross, and follow Him. Better yet, allow Him to sanctify us so that the Body of Christ on earth can grow in holiness.

For me this begs the question why even have hell. As you said above god is “perfect love”. I don’t think anything with “perfect love” would want a being to be in eternal torment. Also if the demons are actually helping humans then they don’t have free will, they are just tools a “perfect love” god uses.

 

[Dorothy]

For me this begs the question why even have hell. As you said above god is “perfect love”. I don’t think anything with “perfect love” would want a being to be in eternal torment. Also if the demons are actually helping humans then they don’t have free will, they are just tools a “perfect love” god uses.

The demons can tempt when God allows them to. It is our choice to give in to the temptation or to use the grace the Lord gives us to resist.

God does not want any of us to be in eternal torment. A person chooses hell by their actions. THEY CHOOSE THEIR MISERY RATHER THAN OBEDIENCE! (just like the rebellious angels.) God allows our choices, as we have free will.

I pray the Lord reveals His love to you.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[MT1926]

That makes no sense. Okay first question; Is god all knowing? If yes then god knew 1/3 of the angels would fail the test and let it happen. If no then why would god be all powerful, loving, merciful, just ect?

Them being “on a leash” makes less sense because why would a all loving supreme being that is perfect allow anything to harm its creation? More so a perfect being would only create perfection and this world is not perfect in any way.

I just wanted to jump in because I think you are having a hard time reconciling how our free will fits into God’s plan.

There is nothing to reconcile. Here is an example from Fr. Vincent. Because you know that the sun will be in the sky tomorrow doesn’t mean that you will have caused it to be there! Even though God already knows what our free choices will be in the future, our choices are still ours and are still free. If our free choices change how the future will be, God already knows that and has known it for all eternity.

That being said I think the difficulty here revolves around your quote “let it happen”. Just because God let’s something happen doesn’t mean he doesn’t love us or is weak. I think the closest we could compare ourselves to God would be by comparing a father to a 2 year old. Sometimes the father does something in the best interest of the 2 year old, even though the 2 year old only sees mean daddy. Sometimes the father lets the 2 year old fall, which can hurt, because the father knows the son will grow stronger from the experience.

Just because bad things happens is not evidence that God doesn’t love us.

I think an unloving God would be one that would not create 1/3 of the angles because he knew they would fall.
Matthew 5:46
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

The definition of mercy is to have compassion for someone that offends you. If God never allow bad things to happen then he would not be merciful. The fact that he only allowed good wouldn’t be compassionate.

On a final note it takes more power to work with imperfect people than it does to work with perfect people.

God Bless

 

[mVitus]

A side note: Genesis and the Flood need not be taken literally. There are various Ask An Apologist threads about that.

Second: We worship God, not god. God is the creator of the universe and father to us all. Lower case god refers to any generic male deity like Zeus, Odin, and ect. To rephrase that, god is a generic noun referring to a general concept but God is a specific being.

And as for why to have hell, our will is fixed at death to choose God or not God. If we let hatred, for example, consume us and want to wallow in it, then we’re allowed to wallow in our hatred. It’s not pleasant, but some people choose it. Kind of like how a parent wants success for their child, but some choose to ignore the hard work that leads them to success.

As someone who’s been, I think, close to where you are I know it’s a tough concept. Maybe you were thinking about it and thinking about where you’d end up and decided to embrace the theology of “everybody goes to Heaven” because let’s be honest, it feels good. I don’t know. But if you listen, you’ll begin to see how it all makes sense. If hell didn’t exist, Jesus wouldn’t have needlessly scared people by telling them it exists. In fact that would be deception and require God to sin. God cannot sin.

And as a footnote: God’s mercy is infinite. But we need to accept it for it to do anything. And only with contrition can we acceot such a grace.

 

[punisherthunder]

They kind of have a point. God is supposed to be all powerful and the perfection of good correct? In that case why would there be any way for evil to come into the world let alone a “head of evil” the devil be around? Think about it, god created everything correct? Which means god created the devil correct? So then since god is all knowing, which I assume is correct, god then knew the devil would tempt the first people in the garden of Eden and therefore let the fall happen.

No, they do not have a point.

When I say they deny Hell and the Devil…they do this at point blank range. It’s a complete, 100% denial. To deny such, denies the divinity of Jesus by his dying for the sins of mankind. You deny one part, you deny the whole thing.

 

[phil19034]

Thank you. Just giving a quick scan here is a question. Why would a person want to spend eternity with a being that, in a story, killed off the world population except for eight people? It still brings up free will which has all kinds of problems. If god is omniscient surely god would have seen the “fall” and stopped its pet project from going down the tubes. Personally I see the story of the Garden of Eden as the ancient Hebrews explaining how they came about. It is a creation story for them and why they had to work hard to get food.

For Millennia, Catholics (and even the Jews of Jesus’s time) understood that the Book of Genesis was mostly written figuratively and literary; not literal. It wasn’t until the protestant revolt, that people started taking the Book of Genesis literal.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literary

To properly understand the Book of Genesis, you have to understand take Catholic Theology and the teaching of Christ into account.

Also, death isn’t a bad thing if Heaven is real (which of course it is)

Why is it that “only the good die young”? Answer, so others will follow them to Heaven.