Denial of Holy Communion

[rpp]

I see your point…but yet, how can you KNOW that this person hasn’t made a confession and has made a change of heart before coming to communion that day?

It would be just as serious to deny someone the Eucharist who HAD confessed and made themself right before God, no?

I guess I’d feel much better about leaving that decision to the parish priest…otherwise, we start being lay judges of our fellow parishioners…and where does “grave public sin” end?

And…I suppose that I see the sacrament as being beneficial for sinners (as we all do)…so as an EME I don’t feel it’s my call to make. At least that’s the way we instruct our EMEs.

“…unless their penance and conversion have been established…” is kind of vague. I guess if there was some sort of list that all those who fit the bill that all the EMEs know about, that would be different…but for an EME to make that judgment on their own…methinks could be problematic.

This is a legitimate question. How would a parish priest know any better if confession were all that was required?

I believe this is addressed in the article. It quotes from Canon law and this was what I quoted in my introduction. You did not complete the quote when you cited it. Here is the specific area again in it’s entirety.

Can.855 §I . The publicly unworthy, who are the excommunicated, the interdicted and the manifestly infamous, unless their penance and conversion have been established and they will have first made up for the public scandal, are to be excluded from the Eucharist.

This has been historically interpreted as a **public **repudiation of the sin. For example, it would require a pro-Abortion lawmaker to publicly announce he/she no longer supports abortion. For an unmarried couple who were *notorious *for their cohabitation, they would have to make it clear to all they they are no longer living together and would never do such a thing again.

Essentially, grave sin committed publicly requires public renunciation of the sin.

That is how the EMoHC or the parish priest would know.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

Excellent point to consider.

I thought so too,…But, I also don’t want anyone here to misunderstand me; I think anyone in a state of mortal sin should not receive Communion,…I don’t!

But I’m not so sure that I’d be the one to cast the first stone either.

 

[Newbie2]

This is a legitimate question. How would a parish priest know any better if confession were all that was required?

For an unmarried couple who were *notorious *for their cohabitation, they would have to make it clear to all they they are no longer living together and would never do such a thing again.

Essentially, grave sin committed publicly requires public renunciation of the sin.

That is how the EMoHC or the parish priest would know.

Hypothetically, then, let’s say this politician or whomever decided on Friday that, hey, he/she is wrong, confesses on Saturday with the intent of making a public announcement on Monday at a press conference, they couldn’t receive on that Sunday?

 

[latinmasslover]

That I would disagree with completely, at least in my experience. Out of 100 or so EMEs in our parish, I know of maybe 2 or 3 who would be comfortable doing so.

In fact, we have to frequently reinforce that our EMEs should make those who come up in line chomping on gum get rid of it before receiving; every now and then an EME (who’s been trained to do so) will ask if it’s OK to tell people to get rid of their gum.

Volunteers. Sheesh.

Exactly! If they’re volunteers, they should UNvolunteer, as the position of EOEMHC is not necessary anyway. To do this ministry one has to be willing to do what is required, and if they’re not, they’re simply not suited to it.

 

[Newbie2]

Exactly! If they’re volunteers, they should UNvolunteer, as the position of EOEMHC is not necessary anyway. To do this ministry one has to be willing to do what is required, and if they’re not, they’re simply not suited to it.

Well, in our parish if they all quit, I think our priest would too!

 

[latinmasslover]

I wonder about this:

Christ knew what Judas was about to do, and had even said that “one of you is a devil”, and “that it would be better if he not been born”,…yet celebrated the first Holy Communion with him anyhow.

Maybe I should ask this in the Ask An Apologist forum…

A good question, but it still doesn’t prove your point. Holy Communion is to be refused to someone in a state of grave/mortal ***PUBLIC ***sin. Judas had the intention, but still did not commit the act. His intended sin was known to Jesus but not to the other Apostles. Jesus didn’t scandelize Judas by refusing Holy Communion to him for a sin that 1) wasn’t known (at the time) to the Apostles and 2) hadn’t been committed yet. Redundant, I know. I just wanted to make my point.

 

[Light_Seeker]

Excellent point to consider.

Yes, excellent point, & I have considered it.

Gospel of John (13:2) tells us the devil came into Judas during supper. So this would be after Jesus gave him communion.

So, when Judas took communion, he was at that instant able to receive from Jesus.

Did I misunderstand this?

 

[Newbie2]

Yes, excellent point, & I have considered it.

Did I misunderstand this?

Well, there ya go! Stimulating intellectual theological discussion.

Fides Quarens intellectum

 

[rpp]

I wonder about this:

Christ knew what Judas was about to do, and had even said that “one of you is a devil”, and “that it would be better if he not been born”,…yet celebrated the first Holy Communion with him anyhow.

Maybe I should ask this in the Ask An Apologist forum…

I believe Judas left Mass early.

 

[rpp]

Hypothetically, then, let’s say this politician or whomever decided on Friday that, hey, he/she is wrong, confesses on Saturday with the intent of making a public announcement on Monday at a press conference, they couldn’t receive on that Sunday?

You are correct, it would be right to deny him Holy Communion unless he made a statement to the priest before Mass regarding his intent. In such a case, and he may have legitimate reasons (e.g. news cycle) for a Monday announcement, he can tell the priest of his intentions and receive from the priest.

I believe this is pretty much how the Church wants this type of repentance to happen.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

I believe Judas left Mass early.

I would have hoped so,…but apparently not from what I read in Luke 22; 14-21 (Douay Rheims).

 

[Newbie2]

Makes sense.

 

[Light_Seeker]

I think it may be semi-clear for *public *sin, with the excellent example of a politician given above. But what about *personal *sin?

As an example, I’m chowing down a fast food cheeseburger in my car before Mass. Deacon walks by & says hi. 30 minutes later, I approach him in the communion line.

Clearly, I shouldn’t be receiving the Eucharist, and have sinned if I go to receive. And if the Deacon gives me Communion, he has then sinned also, because he knows I wasn’t prepared to receive.

Gonna be a long line at confession

 

[lak611]

I think it may be semi-clear for *public *sin, with the excellent example of a politician given above. But what about *personal *sin?

As an example, I’m chowing down a fast food cheeseburger in my car before Mass. Deacon walks by & says hi. 30 minutes later, I approach him in the communion line.

Clearly, I shouldn’t be receiving the Eucharist, and have sinned if I go to receive. And if the Deacon gives me Communion, he has then sinned also, because he knows I wasn’t prepared to receive.

Gonna be a long line at confession

Not necessarily. The deacon would not know everything about you. You could have a medical condition such as diabetes that would require you to eat.

 

[rpp]

I think it may be semi-clear for *public *sin, with the excellent example of a politician given above. But what about *personal *sin?

As an example, I’m chowing down a fast food cheeseburger in my car before Mass. Deacon walks by & says hi. 30 minutes later, I approach him in the communion line.

Clearly, I shouldn’t be receiving the Eucharist, and have sinned if I go to receive. And if the Deacon gives me Communion, he has then sinned also, because he knows I wasn’t prepared to receive.

Gonna be a long line at confession

Not necessarily. The deacon would not know everything about you. You could have a medical condition such as diabetes that would require you to eat.

In addition to what Lak611 said, the fast preceeding Mass for Latin Rite Catholics is one hour before receiving. Secondly, skipping the Mass is neither a public sin nor is it, I believe, a grave matter.

 

[Light_Seeker]

Not necessarily. The deacon would not know everything about you. You could have a medical condition such as diabetes that would require you to eat.

Thank you, very good point I had not considered.

rpp:

In addition to what Lak611 said, the fast preceeding Mass for Latin Rite Catholics is one hour before receiving. Secondly, skipping the Mass is neither a public sin nor is it, I believe, a grave matter.

I was under the belief that all Catholics, RC & Eastern, need to fast a minimum of 1 hour before. Regardless of extraordinary or ordinary form. Didn’t mention skipping Mass, but I was also of the belief that skipping Mass, unless sick or physically unable to do so, was also indeed a sin.

 

[rpp]

I was under the belief that all Catholics, RC & Eastern, need to fast a minimum of 1 hour before. Regardless of extraordinary or ordinary form. Didn’t mention skipping Mass, but I was also of the belief that skipping Mass, unless sick or physically unable to do so, was also indeed a sin.

Not making the proper fast before Mass, without good reason, is a sin. I do not think it is a grave sin, however. (But I may be wrong.)

As for the duration of the fast, For most Latin Rite Catholics, it is one hour. For other rites I have heard that it may be longer than one hour.

 

[BobP123]

I see your point…but yet, how can you KNOW that this person hasn’t made a confession and has made a change of heart before coming to communion that day?

So when did he have this change of heart when he walked into Church with his “roommate” exactly?

And what about when Clinton goes to receive communion? What would you do then?

 

[BobP123]

Didn’t mention skipping Mass, but I was also of the belief that skipping Mass, unless sick or physically unable to do so, was also indeed a sin.

That is correct. In fact very grave. You are obligated to attend Mass; you are not obligated to receive communion but once a year at Eastertime. If you haven’t fasted, stay in your seat and make a spiritual act of communion; you will have gained nothing if you aren’t been properly disposed before communion.

 

[Newbie2]

So when did he have this change of heart when he walked into Church with his “roommate” exactly?

And what about when Clinton goes to receive communion? What would you do then?

Exactly my point. There’s no way we can know if/when someone has had a change in heart as EMEs. Perhaps the parish priest would know, especially if that person had come and made a confession.

Good question about Clinton. I’d say no, him not being Catholic. (Got out of that one, eh? )

But what about Jenny Granholm, “pro-life” Governor of Michigan and Catholic? If she was a parishioner in my parish (I guess her home parish is a city or two over from mine), I’d ask my priest in advance. But if she got in line at my parish…and we didn’t know she’d be there…I’d offer her communion.

Perhaps that’s wrong, and may be unpopular, but personally, I see a benefit in the grace and healing in that sacrament…that which ultimately may lead to her renouncing abortion.