Denial of the Cross of the Crucifixion

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The JW organization teaching about the cross is obviously satanically driven. There’s no doubt in that. This is the question I want to pose to the rest of you:

What do you think satan would have to gain by convincing us that Jesus died on a torture stake, rather than the cross? Every satanic lie is orchestrated for a reason, right? Any ideas?
 
Chris: I wonder whether it’s prudent to say things like “obviously satanically driven”, on this public message board.
 
Ok. I fixed it.

Well, what do you think about the question?
 
Do they mean He was impaled? Or do they mean that He probably only carried the cross beam and that the “stake” or upright to which the crossbeam was affixed was probably a permanent feature at a permanent execution site? I’ve never heard the former, but I think the latter is generally accepted.
 
Jehovah’s witnesses don’t think Christ died on a cross, but rather a torture stake. Thier ‘new world translation’ even substitutes ‘cross’ with ‘torture stake’.

My question; What would be the use of this distortion be to satan, and why would he inspire it?
 
I don’t know why satan would benefit from their statement. I do know that it shows a huge lack of knowledge of history on the part of the JWs.
 
Satan is the father of lies, and I suspect that he formulated this lie for a specific reason or pay-off. All I don’t know is what he would have as a motive for denying the cross.
 
Because satan is afraid of the cross. because Jesus died to redeem us on the cross so satan would do anything to eradicate it.
 
Chris LaRock:
The JW organization teaching about the cross is obviously satanically driven. There’s no doubt in that. This is the question I want to pose to the rest of you:

What do you think satan would have to gain by convincing us that Jesus died on a torture stake, rather than the cross? Every satanic lie is orchestrated for a reason, right? Any ideas?
Chris:

I don’t like to load a discussion with presuppositions about what is or is not ‘Satanically-inspired’, in the sense of direct, supernatural inspiration by the Father of Lies. My guess is that the founding members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses–specifically Charles Russell and Judge Rutherford–adopted a methodology which presupposed that Christian symbols and practices were overladen with Pagan interpolations. The early Witnesses were strongly motivated to challenge anything which looked as if it was based more upon Christian tradition than upon clear evidence from the Bible. This led them to question EVERY symbol commonly by Christians historically. Cross-like symbols ARE found in some pagan religions, and this rendered the Christian cross suspect. The idea that the Crucifixion might have taken place on a pole or a stake seemed plausible. It has long been conceded that we don’t actually know the true shape of the Cross on which Christ died–He could have been crucified on an “X” shaped cross, a “T” shaped cross, a “+” shaped crossor even and “I” shaped cross, as the Witnesses proposed. The evidence from Scripture most strongly supports the traditional idea of a “+”, but one could make a case for any of the other forms.

Remember that Jehovah’s Witness doctrine was being developed in a time when liberal scholarship held sway and there was a widespread belief that all kinds of traditional ideas about the Christian Faith were about to be shattered. Not a few people honestly believed that all religious beliefs would be shown to be based largely or entirely upon myths, and that Christianity would be ‘relegated to the dustbin of history’ as one thinker put it. A lot of the so-called ‘cults’, as well as movements such as Fundamentalism, came into being as a reaction to that idea, as an attempt to rescue Christianity from becoming intellectually marginalised. The Mormons chose to do this by establishing a new system of revelation. The Christian Scientists tried to do it by restoring the practice of healing. The Fudnamentalists made a four-square stand to defend the historic Christian Faith insofar as they could prove it directly from the Scriptures. And the Witnesses began to indulge in theological minimalism–they tried to expunge everything not clearly practiced in the very very earliest days of the Christian faith or clearly taught within the Scriptures.

I do think there is a social-psychological explanation for a lot of the practices of the Witnesses and similar groups. It increased the level of internal control over the membership. By rejecting some of the most cherished practices and beliefs of other Christian groups, they isolated themselves from others. This made members ever more dependent upon the Organization for social support, and ever less-likely to look outside of that Organization. I don’t know that Russell or Rutherford deliberately made their beliefs eccentric just for this reason, but it is one of the payoffs of allowing it to happen. Even if a member becomes disillusioned about the way the Society is operated, it will be very difficult for them to leave the Watchtower organization if they are fully convinced that crosses are unscriptural, the Trinity is a pagan idea, blood transfusions are immoral, etcetera. If faith remains in even a few of these peculiar notions of the JW’s, they will find themselves unable to find a spiritual ‘home’ in any other religious body. They would be cut-off from any association with Witnesses and would see themselves having no recourse to other Christians either. Very few people can tolerate the loneliness which would ensue.

There is something ‘Satanic’ about that: it makes the JW ideology a trap, a snare that is difficult to escape. But that is about as far as I’d be willing to speculate along those lines.
 
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flameburns623:
Chris:

I don’t like to load a discussion with presuppositions about what is or is not ‘Satanically-inspired’, in the sense of direct, supernatural inspiration by the Father of Lies. My guess is that the founding members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses–specifically Charles Russell and Judge Rutherford–adopted a methodology which presupposed that Christian symbols and practices were overladen with Pagan interpolations. The early Witnesses were strongly motivated to challenge anything which looked as if it was based more upon Christian tradition than upon clear evidence from the Bible. This led them to question EVERY symbol commonly by Christians historically. Cross-like symbols ARE found in some pagan religions, and this rendered the Christian cross suspect. The idea that the Crucifixion might have taken place on a pole or a stake seemed plausible. It has long been conceded that we don’t actually know the true shape of the Cross on which Christ died–He could have been crucified on an “X” shaped cross, a “T” shaped cross, a “+” shaped crossor even and “I” shaped cross, as the Witnesses proposed. The evidence from Scripture most strongly supports the traditional idea of a “+”, but one could make a case for any of the other forms.

Remember that Jehovah’s Witness doctrine was being developed in a time when liberal scholarship held sway and there was a widespread belief that all kinds of traditional ideas about the Christian Faith were about to be shattered. Not a few people honestly believed that all religious beliefs would be shown to be based largely or entirely upon myths, and that Christianity would be ‘relegated to the dustbin of history’ as one thinker put it. A lot of the so-called ‘cults’, as well as movements such as Fundamentalism, came into being as a reaction to that idea, as an attempt to rescue Christianity from becoming intellectually marginalised. The Mormons chose to do this by establishing a new system of revelation. The Christian Scientists tried to do it by restoring the practice of healing. The Fudnamentalists made a four-square stand to defend the historic Christian Faith insofar as they could prove it directly from the Scriptures. And the Witnesses began to indulge in theological minimalism–they tried to expunge everything not clearly practiced in the very very earliest days of the Christian faith or clearly taught within the Scriptures.

I do think there is a social-psychological explanation for a lot of the practices of the Witnesses and similar groups. It increased the level of internal control over the membership. By rejecting some of the most cherished practices and beliefs of other Christian groups, they isolated themselves from others. This made members ever more dependent upon the Organization for social support, and ever less-likely to look outside of that Organization. I don’t know that Russell or Rutherford deliberately made their beliefs eccentric just for this reason, but it is one of the payoffs of allowing it to happen. Even if a member becomes disillusioned about the way the Society is operated, it will be very difficult for them to leave the Watchtower organization if they are fully convinced that crosses are unscriptural, the Trinity is a pagan idea, blood transfusions are immoral, etcetera. If faith remains in even a few of these peculiar notions of the JW’s, they will find themselves unable to find a spiritual ‘home’ in any other religious body. They would be cut-off from any association with Witnesses and would see themselves having no recourse to other Christians either. Very few people can tolerate the loneliness which would ensue.

There is something ‘Satanic’ about that: it makes the JW ideology a trap, a snare that is difficult to escape. But that is about as far as I’d be willing to speculate along those lines.
Satan is the father of lies, so all lies must come from him. Does that make sense?

My question was what satan would have to gain by making us think that Jesus died on a torture stake rather than a cross. It seems to me that his death alone is what buys our salvation, not the actual object used to kill him. I’ve demonstrated how you can use the JW rendering of the bible to disprove this doctrine.

Wether Charles Russell and Rutherford Hayes were aware of satan’s role in perverting Christian teaching through them is trivial. Even if Hayes and Russell were honest in thier aim to do good in this world, nobody can doubt that the religion they founded is leading precious souls to hell.

The JWs themselves are not the enemy. For we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against the spiritual wickedness of Satan and his fallen angels. The JW is simply a person who loves God, but is deceived.
 
the religion they founded is leading precious souls to hell.
Chris, as we know, only God Himself reads the human heart and only He decides who is hell bound. I do not believe that jws are hell bound in their ignorance. If one has knowingly rejected The Holy Mother Church and The Eucharist for jwism, …well, I still let that decision up to God.
I once knew a jw lady very well who was a pioneer for the jws. (a full time door knocker) She was a kind hearted, loving woman who never knew any other religion in her life and truely believed she had found God in the watchtower society. She is now 84 years old and still knocking on doors full time. My point here is that I do not believe for a second that she is condemmed by God, Whom she loves so very much.
As to Charles Taze Russell and Joseph Rutherford (Rutherford Hayes was the 19th president of the U.S.), once again, where their souls are is between them and God.
The JW is simply a person who loves God, but is deceived.
That is very true.

As far as the “torture stake” translation, it is an incorrect translation and historically inaccurate, but doesn’t really mean much. Christ died, Christ rose, Christ will come again. That’s all that matters.
 
They teach being members of the the wathchtower group is the way to salvation, rather than faith in Christ alone. This is why I say they are leading people to hell.
 
Chris La Rock:
Satan is the father of lies, so all lies must come from him. Does that make sense?
Yes but approaching the subject from such a position is not likely to be very fruitful if your interest is to engage JW’s in a dialogue with an eye to helping them see their errors.
My question was what satan would have to gain by making us think that Jesus died on a torture stake rather than a cross. It seems to me that his death alone is what buys our salvation, not the actual object used to kill him. I’ve demonstrated how you can use the JW rendering of the bible to disprove this doctrine.
‘He’ hasn’t made ‘us’ think so. (Very few people who have looked at the subject find the JW’s argumentation particularly compelling). ‘He’ makes a handful of souls who often already feel estranged from much of organised Christian religion think this. I have already indicated that the explicit motives for this were probably a misguided desire to purify Christianty by expunging it of practices which the Witnesses thought were influenced by paganism. One implicit and probably unconscious motivator was that such beliefs help estrange JW converts from the larger society and reinforce their collective solidarity. This is ultimately Satanic in design, but one can waste a great deal of time trying to ‘pin the pointy tail on the Devil’.
They teach being members of the the wathchtower group is the way to salvation, rather than faith in Christ alone. This is why I say they are leading people to hell.
They are rather more nuanced in this respect than you are giving them credit for being. Their position is essentially semi-Pelagian (faith PLUS works) but of course the works must be done on behalf of God’s Annointed Servant–the Watchtower Organization.

Humans being complex beings, it is conceivable that many who join the Watchtower organization do so in sincerity, holding fast to a saving faith in the true Christ Who will wink at their ignorance and grant them admittance to His Kingdom. In any case it is the epitome of Christian charity to hope so and to pray this be so.
 
Read chapter 8 in the book:

“Answering jehovah’s witnesses”
author: Jason Evert

I can only recommend that book very highly! As a former jw
it is very enlightening, and pointed out some things that I
never knew as a witness!

You might be able to get this book ordered at your library.
It is a truly insightful book, and outlines the wt’s beliefs.
It might also be available at amazon.com
 
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flameburns623:
Yes but approaching the subject from such a position is not likely to be very fruitful if your interest is to engage JW’s in a dialogue with an eye to helping them see their errors.

‘He’ hasn’t made ‘us’ think so. (Very few people who have looked at the subject find the JW’s argumentation particularly compelling). ‘He’ makes a handful of souls who often already feel estranged from much of organised Christian religion think this. I have already indicated that the explicit motives for this were probably a misguided desire to purify Christianty by expunging it of practices which the Witnesses thought were influenced by paganism. One implicit and probably unconscious motivator was that such beliefs help estrange JW converts from the larger society and reinforce their collective solidarity. This is ultimately Satanic in design, but one can waste a great deal of time trying to ‘pin the pointy tail on the Devil’.

They are rather more nuanced in this respect than you are giving them credit for being. Their position is essentially semi-Pelagian (faith PLUS works) but of course the works must be done on behalf of God’s Annointed Servant–the Watchtower Organization.

Humans being complex beings, it is conceivable that many who join the Watchtower organization do so in sincerity, holding fast to a saving faith in the true Christ Who will wink at their ignorance and grant them admittance to His Kingdom. In any case it is the epitome of Christian charity to hope so and to pray this be so.
I take it that you are a Jehovah’s Witness, then?
 
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Marilena:
Read chapter 8 in the book:

“Answering jehovah’s witnesses”
author: Jason Evert

I can only recommend that book very highly! As a former jw
it is very enlightening, and pointed out some things that I
never knew as a witness!

You might be able to get this book ordered at your library.
It is a truly insightful book, and outlines the wt’s beliefs.
It might also be available at amazon.com
I think ex-jws have more credibility among jws than an evangelical like me.

One thing that frightened me most was ‘reasoning from the scriptures’. It coaches jws in how to side-step hard questions, and gives word-for-word answers they are to use when dealing with certain questions. This means that the jw you talk to is reciting something that has been scripted for them by the watchtower and the answers you are given by them are not thier own. This has the implication of…dare I say it…brainwashing.
 
Chris LaRock:
I take it that you are a Jehovah’s Witness, then?
No. Never have been. My positions in this thread alone should be so obviously at odds with Watchtower doctrine that it would be unlikely that I were an active Jehovah’s Witness. I believe the cross was “+” shaped, for example, and in the very post you cited point out that the Witnesses’ arguments that the crucifixion took place on a pole are not very convincing to most people. I also call the Watchtower version of soteriology ‘Pelagian’, which is an ancient heresy which teaches that one is saved by one’s faith PLUS one’s good works. A knowledgeable Witness would be unlikely to concede that their beliefs were Pelagian, but would insist that they believe in salvation as the Bible teaches it.

I was however once married to a woman whose half-sister and husband were ‘pioneers’. Two of the sweetest people you’d ever want to meet, not the sort of people you’d normally associate with the Witnesses. She’s had some really rough times, lost a baby, was abandoned by the husband who had fathered the infant and who blamed her for the child’s death. She lived alone for months, coming close to comitting suicide before the Witnesses found where she lived. She converted to the Witnesses, was a member for ten years, and shortly after she married a Witness man, she discovered she had advanced uterine cancer. Ultimately she passed away of this, at about age 34, about ten years ago now.

Anyhow, I had some opportunity to spend time talking with her and her 2nd husband about them, and they were quite willing to talk about a lot of the anti-Watchtower literature. They were quite aware of it even though they declined to own such material or accept it from people they visit door-to-door. The ‘salvation-by-faith-alone’ issue came up several times. I scarcely consider myself an ‘expert’ on the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I do know they are Pelagian in their soteriology.

My BA is in sociology and I have done some study on the issue of religious conversions and indoctrination. Very few serious social scientists or psychologists credit the theory of ‘brainwashing’. I have posted on this elsewhere recently. I will provide a link or two if it is useful. My advice to one and all is to know Christian doctrine so thoroughly that you can explain it in the face of critics and false teachers. Rather than focusing upon ‘anti’ literature which claims to ‘debunk’ alternative faiths, since much of that literature is not very reliable. Although “Reasoning From the Scriptures With Jehovah’s Witnesses” by Ron Rhodes is pretty good, I will concede.
 
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flameburns623:
No. Never have been. My positions in this thread alone should be so obviously at odds with Watchtower doctrine that it would be unlikely that I were an active Jehovah’s Witness. I believe the cross was “+” shaped, for example, and in the very post you cited point out that the Witnesses’ arguments that the crucifixion took place on a pole are not very convincing to most people. I also call the Watchtower version of soteriology ‘Pelagian’, which is an ancient heresy which teaches that one is saved by one’s faith PLUS one’s good works. A knowledgeable Witness would be unlikely to concede that their beliefs were Pelagian, but would insist that they believe in salvation as the Bible teaches it.

I was however once married to a woman whose half-sister and husband were ‘pioneers’. Two of the sweetest people you’d ever want to meet, not the sort of people you’d normally associate with the Witnesses. She’s had some really rough times, lost a baby, was abandoned by the husband who had fathered the infant and who blamed her for the child’s death. She lived alone for months, coming close to comitting suicide before the Witnesses found where she lived. She converted to the Witnesses, was a member for ten years, and shortly after she married a Witness man, she discovered she had advanced uterine cancer. Ultimately she passed away of this, at about age 34, about ten years ago now.

Anyhow, I had some opportunity to spend time talking with her and her 2nd husband about them, and they were quite willing to talk about a lot of the anti-Watchtower literature. They were quite aware of it even though they declined to own such material or accept it from people they visit door-to-door. The ‘salvation-by-faith-alone’ issue came up several times. I scarcely consider myself an ‘expert’ on the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I do know they are Pelagian in their soteriology.

My BA is in sociology and I have done some study on the issue of religious conversions and indoctrination. Very few serious social scientists or psychologists credit the theory of ‘brainwashing’. I have posted on this elsewhere recently. I will provide a link or two if it is useful. My advice to one and all is to know Christian doctrine so thoroughly that you can explain it in the face of critics and false teachers. Rather than focusing upon ‘anti’ literature which claims to ‘debunk’ alternative faiths, since much of that literature is not very reliable. Although “Reasoning From the Scriptures With Jehovah’s Witnesses” by Ron Rhodes is pretty good, I will concede.
Sorry about the misunderstanding.

The thing that strikes me about ‘reasoning from the scriptures’ is that it instructs jws of how to respond to questions in a cold, scripted way, word for word. That’s ingenuine to me. It also teaches them how to avoid questions in clever manuvers too. Jws learn how to manipulate people durring bible studies by reading ‘reasoning from the scriptures’. Manipulation would not be needed if they had a true faith.
 
Chris LaRock:
Sorry about the misunderstanding.

The thing that strikes me about ‘reasoning from the scriptures’ is that it instructs jws of how to respond to questions in a cold, scripted way, word for word. That’s ingenuine to me. It also teaches them how to avoid questions in clever manuvers too. Jws learn how to manipulate people durring bible studies by reading ‘reasoning from the scriptures’. Manipulation would not be needed if they had a true faith.
People are going to be confused by this exchange. You are discussing a publication by the Jehovah’s Witnesses known as “Reasoning From the Scriptures”, which I think has been out for some years now. I am talking about one of a series of books by a Protestant Evangelical apologists named Ron Rhodes–the particular book is entitled “Reasoning From The Scriptures With Jehovah’s Witnesses”. (He has similar books out for Reasoning From The Scriptures With Muslims, Mormons, and Roman Catholics, in case anyone is interested. He does a very good job though I’m sure the Catholic apologists here take some exception with the last of the books I mentioned).

I think the principle behind what the JW’s do is to create easily-memorized responses to common issues, which they can then tailor as needful. Hank Hannegraf of the Bible Answerman, another Evangelical apologist, uses much the same principle and I sometimes get irritated at the way Hank will answer certain common questions on his show in a somewhat rigid, rote manner. However, having listened to Hank for some years now I find that I often find myself falling back on the very sorts of answers, using the very same phraseology, that Hannegraf uses.

Ron Rhodes, by the way, offers a similar system of responses to approaching the Witnesses or others. And if you compare a typical Catholic Answers radio broadcast with earlier efforts at Catholic apologetics–a lot of the answers you will find there are also pretty ‘stock’ and standardised, clearly intended to be memorable and readily brought to bear in a pinch. For people just coming to the arena of apologetics, those who are seeking quick responses to give to someone they happen to know in a false religious movement, and/or those who can’t spend a great deal of their energies seeking to refute all possible errors, this methodology has some advantages. If however one must needs engage another person in an extended dialogue about what is true or untrue, the limits of such tactics are quickly reached. For one thing, it is not clever argumentation which truly converts people but the power of the Holy Ghost. For another, good debating skills will seldom take the place of heartfelt prayer and love for the other person, a real relationship with them, and a genuine conversation. Which is all very difficult to develop if one assumes one’s opponent is ‘demonised’ as your opening posts in this thread suggest.

I don’t mean to suggest that one should not use one’s reasoning abilities to work through issues with someone in a false religious movement. Nor do I think that a systematised approach to initial or commonly-raised issues is bad. I think these things are important, so long as they are kept in their place. And very often a person in a heretical group will cut short the conversation at some point–at which point it is nice to have a couple of last hard questions to toss into their lap before one parts company. But I also think there are some limits to the taking merely-cerebral tack
 
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