Denominations which allow Women Pastors.

[Porknpie]

Let me mention that Protestants support the idea of the universal priesthood of all believers. Therefore, there are no ordained priests in protestant Churches, male of female. Ministers can be men or women, but they are not priests.

Not having priests and having women pastors is a departure from the apostolic faith. As St Cyprian says, The Church, which is Catholic and ONE, is cemented together by its priests. And of course a priest offers sacrifice which is missing in most protestant denominations. Another departure from The Church that Christ himself established.

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

 

[Porknpie]

I say that to emphasize that Pentecostals did not ordain women in response to a feminist or liberal agenda, but based on our reading of the whole Bible in context and our experience of the Holy Spirit’s work. It was promised that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on all flesh, and this promise is being fulfilled.

Itwin, the Early Catholic Church determined the canon of scripture and in doing so, they read the whole bible as well, in context. They were also - nearly - 2,000 years closer to the teachings of Christ himself. As we do today, they also held the apostolic teachings that were handed down through time that were not part of scripture. This raises a bunch of questions, not the least of which are:

Why would the Holy Spirit not work in their day to ordain women priests if scripture was so clear? Why not in year 300, 500, 700, 1200 etc?
Why would the Holy Spirit wait 2,000 years to put it into someone’s mind, that scripture should be read in such as way as to ordain women?
How do you know that it is the work of the Holy Spirit putting this into someone’s mind and not that of the evil one?

Per the last comment, the evil one wants to attack Christ’s Church, to fragment it and to deny his flock the sacraments that he himself established for our salvation. In doing so, he leads them away from the Truth, away from eternal life.

PnP

 

[GKC]

We’re Anglican: we’re good at confusing, confused, blurry, and downright unbelievably mixed up!

As our liturgy says, we are catholic (small ‘c’), and that is a very good description of Anglicanism, but we are quite definitely Protestant in that most of us willingly remain outside of the Roman Catholic Church. That said, we tend to get on rather well. My parish shares important services with a Catholic church, and celebrates the Eucharist on an altar which they gave to us.

Yes, some Anglicans do decide to become Catholic, or to combine the two in Anglo-Catholicism, but I might also mention that traffic across the Tiber is not unidirectional. It is … a broad range, and being broad is what we specialise in.

I certainly concur with the opening sentence.

GKC

 

[Novocastrian]

Let me mention that Protestants support the idea of the universal priesthood of all believers. Therefore, there are no ordained priests in protestant Churches, male of female. Ministers can be men or women, but they are not priests.

As others have pointed out, this does not hold true for the Church of England, nor, by extension, for the other national churches of the Anglican Communion. Since the Reformation we have maintained (despite Rome’s disagreement on this issue) a threefold ministry of bishops, priests and deacons. Priests and deacons are ordained, bishops are (preserving older mediaeval language) consecrated.

 

[JonNC]

It seems to me, this proves that Catholics and Lutherans do not together profess the same faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Catholics and Lutherans are very much apart; in fact, there can never be Communion among those of the faith of these women cleric and us (Apostolic Catholic and Orthodox).

Which answers the question as to why, 1) confessional synods such as the LCMS are not in communion synods that ordain women, and 2) there seems a growing dialogue trend between Rome and ILC synods.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Let me mention that Protestants support the idea of the universal priesthood of all believers. Therefore, there are no ordained priests in protestant Churches, male of female. Ministers can be men or women, but they are not priests.

Yes, even Lutherans support the universal priesthood of all believers. That does not exclude the necessity of the ministerial priesthood. From the Augsburg Confession

Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.

Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless** he** be regularly called.

Augsburg shows two things: 1) that Lutheranism confesses the necessity of the ordained priesthood, and 2) that priests are to be male.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Yes, even Lutherans support the universal priesthood of all believers. That does not exclude the necessity of the ministerial priesthood. From the Augsburg Confession

Augsburg shows two things: 1) that Lutheranism confesses the necessity of the ordained priesthood, and 2) that priests are to be male.

Jon

Jon, even the LCMS does not use the Augsburg Confession to support male-only clergy!

 

[JonNC]

Jon, even the LCMS does not use the Augsburg Confession to support male-only clergy!

Perhaps, and while we use scriptures, there is no need to undermine the historic teachings of the Lutheran Church which reflects the teaching of the historic Church Catholic on the matter.

Jon

lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1099

 

[EvangelCatholic]

My sense is that the issue of female priests is evolving since the authority to proclaim the Gospel does not derive from humans. I quoted some extraordinary recommendations from the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity that, I believe, was articulated well after Lutherans began ordaining females.

I can still remember the first time I met a woman pastor in a Lutheran parish; the novelty and perhaps apprehension all quickly faded away when she chanted the Verba while consecrating the holy Elements in the Mass. Christ is Present; that is all that matters.

 

[stewstew03]

I’m curious to know how so many churches have decided to allow women pastors. I can find hundreds of reasons not to allow women pastors aside from the obvious biblical passages but I haven’t been able to find reason to allow women pastors.

The following passages are the main ones of interest:

1 Tim 2:12 …11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.…

1 Tim 3:2…1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.…

1 Corinthians 14:34 …33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.…

Two reasons why protestant denominations allow women ordination:

1. political pressure;
2. people confuse positions of authority with leadership/influence.

Every Catholic knows St. Catherine of Siena, St. Joan of Arc, St. Teresa of Avila, Bl. Mother Teresa, etc., but to most Catholics 90% of the popes are a complete mystery. Pope Adrian? Pope Sergius? Who…?

 

[benjohnson]

Jon, even the LCMS does not use the Augsburg Confession to support male-only clergy!

The LCMS doesn’t ‘support’ male-only clergy.

We receive what God has given us with gratitude.

Form the LCMS:

“We receive what God gives, in the way He has given it, and in the form He has given it. We do not tell God that His gift is not good enough for us, or that we don’t like the form in which He has given the gift. We receive God’s gifts as He gives them, with thanks and praise. We rejoice in the opportunities God has given us, as His redeemed people, to serve Him in the church, and in our daily lives.”

 

[JonNC]

=EvangelCatholic;12109929]My sense is that the issue of female priests is evolving since the authority to proclaim the Gospel does not derive from humans. I quoted some extraordinary recommendations from the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity that, I believe, was articulated well after Lutherans began ordaining females.

My sense is that it is not. As a Lutheran, I see no evidence that the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, under the leadership and guidance of Pope Francis, is anywhere nearer to ordaining women than they were 100, 500, 1500 years ago. Pope JP II eliminates even the possibility.

I can still remember the first time I met a woman pastor in a Lutheran parish; the novelty and perhaps apprehension all quickly faded away when she chanted the Verba while consecrating the holy Elements in the Mass. Christ is Present; that is all that matters.

Then there is no need of scripture, of sacraments, of the confessions, or councils and creeds, or even priests and pastors. This is not a matter of law versus Gospel. It is a matter of what Christ ordained.

Jon

 

[GKC]

My sense is that it is not. As a Lutheran, I see no evidence that the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, under the leadership and guidance of Pope Francis, is anywhere nearer to ordaining women than they were 100, 500, 1500 years ago. Pope JP II eliminates even the possibility.

(Snip)

Jon

This is, I would suspect, because you know that the conclusion of an ecumenical dialog group is not the same as, or related to, the defined teachings of the RCC, and the method by which the one is reached has no connection with how the other is codified and promulgated and taught, with theological certainty, as appropriate.

Not everyone here can make that distinction, I fear.

GKC

 

[PRmerger]

I can still remember the first time I met a woman pastor in a Lutheran parish; the novelty and perhaps apprehension all quickly faded away when she chanted the Verba while consecrating the holy Elements in the Mass. Christ is Present; that is all that matters.

Wha???

 

[EvangelCatholic]

My sense is that it is not. As a Lutheran, I see no evidence that the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, under the leadership and guidance of Pope Francis, is anywhere nearer to ordaining women than they were 100, 500, 1500 years ago. Pope JP II eliminates even the possibility.

Then there is no need of scripture, of sacraments, of the confessions, or councils and creeds, or even priests and pastors. This is not a matter of law versus Gospel. It is a matter of what Christ ordained.
Jon

Barriers that are not dependent on Salvation are just that, barriers.

 

[JonNC]

This is, I would suspect, because you know that the conclusion of an ecumenical dialog group is not the same as, or related to, the defined teachings of the RCC, and the method by which the one is reached has no connection with how the other is codified and promulgated and taught, with theological certainty, as appropriate.

Not everyone here can make that distinction, I fear.

GKC

And, therefore, it comes down to mere wishful thinking. Ecumenical dialogue groups have indeed served a valuable function these last 50 years. I think they can help guide communions such as ours, and the Catholic Church, to closer relations, and with the Spirit’s influence, perhaps some day to unity. But it will not be a unity that jettisons long-held beliefs and practices.

Jon

 

[GKC]

And, therefore, it comes down to mere wishful thinking. Ecumenical dialogue groups have indeed served a valuable function these last 50 years. I think they can help guide communions such as ours, and the Catholic Church, to closer relations, and with the Spirit’s influence, perhaps some day to unity. But it will not be a unity that jettisons long-held beliefs and practices.

Jon

I agree. And wishful thinking is possibly a part of it. Or (harder to believe) confusion.

After that, speculation would possibly run to the uncharitable, and is redundant, in any case.

GKC

 

[Porknpie]

My sense is that the issue of female priests is evolving

So the Holy Spirit came along 2,000 years after Christ died and has revealed to some that females ought to be priests? Interesting that the Early Church never thought of this…that the Holy Spirit never revealed it.

since the authority to proclaim the Gospel does not derive from humans.

Christ gave all authority to the apostles. His Church. The Church has the authority to say what is true, and not; and to bind and loosen.

I can still remember the first time I met a woman pastor in a Lutheran parish; the novelty and perhaps apprehension all quickly faded away

Novelty in theology is a serious problem when it conflicts with scripture and the apostolic faith.

when she chanted the Verba while consecrating the holy Elements in the Mass.

uch:

Christ is Present; that is all that matters.

Christ is present when two or more are gathered in his name. For sure. Present in the holy Elements…no.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

To forcefully argue against women’s ordination beyond cultural preferences seems quaint for Lutherans and Anglicans.

 

[GKC]

To forcefully argue against women’s ordination beyond cultural preferences seems quaint for Lutherans and Anglicans.

Lutherans and Anglicans are, how you say, motley.

Some more Catholic than others. In many dimensions.

GKC