Denominations which allow Women Pastors.

[GKC]

I find St. Augustine’s statement a confirmation for me in my decision many years ago to become Catholic.

I attended an Anglo Catholic parish and in all its externals was more “Catholic” than Catholic parishes. We even had Catholic seminarians attend on Christmas to take part in our beautiful Mass. However, I always had a problems when speaking with someone I didn’t know and I suppose I implied I was Catholic, but always knew if they asked which parish I attended I would have a real problem being honest.

I do wonder what has happened over the last 20 years or so that some protestants feel the need to proclaim they are Catholic, as the Episcopal church and as far as I know the Lutheran church did not proclaim that they were Catholic. In fact, the Anglicans I knew from different parishes knew they were protestant. It appears that maybe their definition of Catholic does not mean being a member of the Church Christ started with Peter as its earthly leader, but that they feel catholic means only universal, which would require that at one time or another their denomination had many members throughout the world. This would be from the beginning two thousand years ago as the Church grew, not the past 500 years or so.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Or it may mean, to them, possessing valid apostolic succession.

No one expects you to agree, to be sure.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I am absolutely opposed to “cultural male preference” regarding ordination. Instead, I look to scripture and the historic teaching of the Church which is based on the faith, not cultural preferences. OTOH, it is secular progressive cultural pressure that some have succumbed to in deciding to go against orthodoxy and ordaining women.

A huge “if”, but if that were to happen, I would look for a home where orthodoxy continues.
Jon

Jon, your comment about leaving the Church if they ordain women is very telling. Is it more important to cling to a belief that has nothing to do with the salvation of God’s people? This is where pride and individual bias seem to interfere with our Christian responsibility. So if a parish must wait years for a male priest, that is acceptable?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

And when was that?

No.

JonC’s point is not entirely correct, grammatically. It is true that in most english translations, Confessio Augustana XIV states that “no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called” (here in the translation found at bookofconcord.org). But the pronoun is not there in either the Latin or German text. But that doesn’t mean that Confessio Augustana endorses women priests, or that you cannot argue that it prohibits women priests. (By ‘women priests’ I mean female priests and bishops, not necessarily deacons. And by ‘female priests and bishops’ I mean people who claim to be so, not people who actually are.) JonC’s point is true if we interpret the confession properly. The are at least two reasons that we can conclude that the confession rejects women priests:

(1) One can argue against women priests on the basis of Scripture, and in the preface of Confessio Augustana, the preface to Emperor Charles V, Scripture is held up as the source.

(2) One can argue against women priests on the basis of Tradition, in particular the writings of the Church Fathers. In Confessio Augustana XXI, it is said explicitly that “there is nothing [in *Confessio Augustana

] that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers.” The Latin text uses ex scriptoribus, ‘from its writers,’ while the German text uses aus der Väter Schrift, ‘from the writings of the Fathers.’ Confessio Augustana thus claims to hold the faith of the Fathers, and the ‘consensus’ of the Fathers is against women priests. For a popularised treatment, see Jimmy Akin’s The Fathers Know Best, part II.IX.46, which shows this consensus. I only have the Kindle version, without page numbers.

Thanks for the imput,KjetilK.

I have no problem with personal interpretation and historic precedent but, as a Lutheran, view these matters as a non-priority. The Church of Norway ordains female priests/ bishops; is the Mass invalid in those parishes/ dioceses?

 

[PRmerger]

As far as, “Can you give an example of what putting “dogma above God” looks like?”, look for yourself, it is pretty obvious at times.

If it’s pretty obvious then you ought to have no problem giving some examples of this.

At this point, I have no idea what you mean.

So, please, give some of these “pretty obvious” examples.

 

[PRmerger]

I do wonder what has happened over the last 20 years or so that some protestants feel the need to proclaim they are Catholic,

I know, right?

 

[PRmerger]

I feel I have as much to give as any man, to God and for God, so I am at peace. God bless ! Kelly

This is very Catholic!

We welcome your talents as a woman in the Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure you read the entirety of my post or else you would have seen I said that not everyone will necessarily conclude that which will turn out to be true. I don’t take everything in the Bible literally. For instance I don’t believe all creation took 6- 24 hr days with the evening and the morning (24 hrs) being a day. I also give some consideration to the Bible being a product of the culture and times in which it was written. Take the topic. I believe women should be allowed to be pastors. And I believe when Christ returns it will be shown to be true. But that’s what I believe. We walk by faith not by sight. I understand you believe differently and accept the RCC as still being today the embodiment of His Truth. And that’s fine. That’s your faith. God may want us to know the Truth. But my point simply is even Roman Catholics get to the point of believing they know what that is… by starting in faith.

All of the above is a nonsequitur, Sy.

Your professed glory in your uncertainty is rather odd and definitely not consonant with the will of God.

God wants us to love Him with our entire MIND, not just with our hearts.

PS btw yes I believe Fred Phelps has concluded wrong too. God is love. Not hate. Good day PRMerger.

Of course you believe he is wrong. I had no doubts about that.

Point is: he limns your inconsistent paradigm.

You cannot profess, 'Fred Phelps has concluded wrong" while also saying, “I’m fine with gray and people being able to study and pray and come to their own conclusions about faith matters.”

What you mean is: Fred Phelps is wrong even if he has studied and prayed and come to his own conclusion. Sometimes people MUST come to the same conclusion as me.

Well, that’s fine. But why do you get to decide when it’s ok to “come to our own conclusions” and when it’s not ok to do this.

Why do you reserve for yourself the right to do this, but not the CC?

 

[JonNC]

Jon, your comment about leaving the Church if they ordain women is very telling. Is it more important to cling to a belief that has nothing to do with the salvation of God’s people? This is where pride and individual bias seem to interfere with our Christian responsibility. So if a parish must wait years for a male priest, that is acceptable?

It is very important to cling to orthodoxy. But it is not my pride or bias here that is at play, unless you are implying that my submitting to the teachings of scripture and the historic Church is somehow bias and pride. My Christian responsibility is to love the Lord, and my neighbor as myself.

If my parish is required to wait for a rightly called and ordained pastor, that is what we must do, relying on an interim or retired supply pastor for word and sacrament. Further, a shortage of pastors seems a strange reason for promoting female ordination. The Lutherans when they arrived in the Americas certainly did not go in that direction. That said, the LCMS has no pastoral shortage.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

JonC’s point is not entirely correct, grammatically. It is true that in most english translations, Confessio Augustana XIV states that “no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called” (here in the translation found at bookofconcord.org). But the pronoun is not there in either the Latin or German text. But that doesn’t mean that Confessio Augustana endorses women priests, or that you cannot argue that it prohibits women priests. (By ‘women priests’ I mean female priests and bishops, not necessarily deacons. And by ‘female priests and bishops’ I mean people who claim to be so, not people who actually are.) JonC’s point is true if we interpret the confession properly. The are at least two reasons that we can conclude that the confession rejects women priests:

(1) One can argue against women priests on the basis of Scripture, and in the preface of Confessio Augustana, the preface to Emperor Charles V, Scripture is held up as the source.

(2) One can argue against women priests on the basis of Tradition, in particular the writings of the Church Fathers. In Confessio Augustana XXI, it is said explicitly that “there is nothing [in *Confessio Augustana

] that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers.” The Latin text uses ex scriptoribus, ‘from its writers,’ while the German text uses aus der Väter Schrift, ‘from the writings of the Fathers.’ Confessio Augustana thus claims to hold the faith of the Fathers, and the ‘consensus’ of the Fathers is against women priests. For a popularised treatment, see Jimmy Akin’s The Fathers Know Best, part II.IX.46, which shows this consensus. I only have the Kindle version, without page numbers.

Well presented, and I accept the correction.

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

Thanks for the imput,KjetilK.

I have no problem with personal interpretation and historic precedent but, as a Lutheran, view these matters as a non-priority. The Church of Norway ordains female priests/ bishops; is the Mass invalid in those parishes/ dioceses?

I understand that this question is directed to KjetilK, and I’m hoping that he’ll respond.

From a Catholic perspective, which isn’t really relevant to the topic, a Catholic Mass, for example, would be invalid due to a woman not being validly ordained, and not being able to confect the Eucharist. (Even if she is illicitly ordained by a Catholic bishop, she is not really ordained, and the Eucharist is not confected, but remains only bread). If a Catholic man is illicitly ordained, however, the Eucharist is still confected by him, but that’s not the case with a woman. At least that’s my understanding.

I’ve no idea about how non-Catholics deal with this in their churches. It would be interesting to know more about it.

 

[PRmerger]

Sometimes we seem to forget that God became One of us as a human being.

Is this an example of putting dogma above God?

Or is it simply your profession of something you believe (i.e. dogma).

Have you ever heard of Mary Magdelene, I think it was, being referred to as the Apostle to the Apostles since it was her that Jesus SENT to the Apostles.

Apostle simply means one who is sent, at least that is what I think it means.

Therefore, it seems to me, that Mary Magdelene should be considered an Apostle especially if one considers Paul an Apostle since Jesus sent her and Paul, most definitely, considered himself an Apostle.

Sure. We’re all apostles in that sense.

In fact, the nuns who run my daughters’ school are called the Apostles of the Sacred Heart, and they are very orthodox, and have the assent of the Holy See, so, I assume, the Vatican is a-ok with women being apostles.

They just were not part of the 12.

My namesake referred to the Jews as a “hardheaded and thick necked people”, I think that I have it phrased right, and Christians, of all persuasions, seem to be following in the footsteps of Judaism, at least in regard to this.

:sad_yes:

Two of, what I consider, the most important things that I have learned in my life, I learned in the 2nd grade and they are: God Is Love and We are all equal in God’s Eyes.

:yup:

2 dogmas we can agree upon!

God picks whomever God picks for whatever “job” God picks one for whether we agree with God or not, in other words, God Is God and we ain’t.

Again, we are agreed on all of these dogmas!

 

[PRmerger]

I am more concerned with how God views us than how we view each other.

There is no need to create a dichotomy. The rational human person is quite capable of being concerned with both.

I have been around long enough to know that it is a waste of time and energy and everything else to be upset about other people’s views, I can not change anyone else, in other words, it is hard enough living my life, I, most definitely, can NOT live anyone else’s life.

There is no doubt that you ought to be concerned–very, very concerned–with how we view each other.

In fact I am astonished at your dismissal of “how we view each other”.

If even just a few more folks espoused your view that’s all it would take for men like Fred Phelps, Hitler, and even the bully down to street to flourish.

Evil would win with an attitude like that.

It’s wholly and entirely un-Christian.

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by EvangelCatholic View Post
Thanks for the imput,KjetilK.

I have no problem with personal interpretation and historic precedent but, as a Lutheran, view these matters as a non-priority. The Church of Norway ordains female priests/ bishops; is the Mass invalid in those parishes/ dioceses?

I understand that this question is directed to KjetilK, and I’m hoping that he’ll respond.

From a Catholic perspective, which isn’t really relevant to the topic, a Catholic Mass, for example, would be invalid due to a woman not being validly ordained, and not being able to confect the Eucharist. (Even if she is illicitly ordained by a Catholic bishop, she is not really ordained, and the Eucharist is not confected, but remains only bread). If a Catholic man is illicitly ordained, however, the Eucharist is still confected by him, but that’s not the case with a woman. At least that’s my understanding.

I’ve no idea about how non-Catholics deal with this in their churches. It would be interesting to know more about it.

As a Lutheran, I strongly disagree with my friend EC, in that I think it is a huge priority. I think the stand of my communion would be she is not validly ordained. My own view is I would not put myself into the position where there might be doubts as to the reality of the sacraments. Therefore, I would not participate in a worship where a woman pronounces absolution in persona Christi, or is the celebrant at the Eucharist.

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

As a Lutheran, I strongly disagree with my friend EC, in that I think it is a huge priority. I think the stand of my communion would be she is not validly ordained. My own view is I would not put myself into the position where there might be doubts as to the reality of the sacraments. Therefore, I would not participate in a worship where a woman pronounces absolution in persona Christi, or is the celebrant at the Eucharist.

Jon

Your view sounds quite reasonable. I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Sy_Noe]

All of the above is a nonsequitur, Sy.

Your professed glory in your uncertainty is rather odd and definitely not consonant with the will of God.

God wants us to love Him with our entire MIND, not just with our hearts.

Of course you believe he is wrong. I had no doubts about that.

Point is: he limns your inconsistent paradigm.

You cannot profess, 'Fred Phelps has concluded wrong" while also saying, “I’m fine with gray and people being able to study and pray and come to their own conclusions about faith matters.”

What you mean is: Fred Phelps is wrong even if he has studied and prayed and come to his own conclusion. Sometimes people MUST come to the same conclusion as me.

Well, that’s fine. But why do you get to decide when it’s ok to “come to our own conclusions” and when it’s not ok to do this.

Why do you reserve for yourself the right to do this, but not the CC?

Profess glory in uncertainty? No I profess Jesus Christ my Savior. But yes indeed I very much like to use the mind God gave me as well as the heart, rather than being told by other humans what I must believe. At the same time I don’t have difficulty accepting the fact us humans were given finite minds. Phelps can believe what he wants. I don’t require he MUST come to the same conclusion as me. I don’t have the same faith in the CC as you do I guess.

 

[PRmerger]

Profess glory in uncertainty? No I profess Jesus Christ my Savior. But yes indeed I very much like to use the mind God gave me as well as the heart, rather than being told by other humans what I must believe.

This is very Catholic.

Although you do, actually, subscribe to the paradigm of “being told bu other human beings what I must believe” each and every time you quote from, say, the Gospel of Mark as being the Word of God.

You believe it because, well, other human beings told you it’s inspired.

You would not know it any other way.

So it’s kind of curious that you would reject being “told by other humans what I must believe” when you accept being “gold by other humans what I must believe.”

At the same time I don’t have difficulty accepting the fact us humans were given finite minds.

Sure. That, too, is very Catholic.

Phelps can believe what he wants. I don’t require he MUST come to the same conclusion as me. I don’t have the same faith in the CC as you do I guess.

Either he is right or he is wrong.

I know you believe he is wrong.

Therefore, when you say he is wrong, you are implicitly saying that he must believe what is true.

OR, you can go by your original paradigm, which is “He prayed. He studied. He came to a different conclusion than me. But it’s also correct. God does hate homosexuals.”

You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This is very Catholic.

Although you do, actually, subscribe to the paradigm of “being told bu other human beings what I must believe” each and every time you quote from, say, the Gospel of Mark as being the Word of God.

You believe it because, well, other human beings told you it’s inspired.

You would not know it any other way.

So it’s kind of curious that you would reject being “told by other humans what I must believe” when you accept being “gold by other humans what I must believe.”

Sure. That, too, is very Catholic.

Either he is right or he is wrong.

I know you believe he is wrong.

Therefore, when you say he is wrong, you are implicitly saying that he must believe what is true.

OR, you can go by your original paradigm, which is “He prayed. He studied. He came to a different conclusion than me. But it’s also correct. God does hate homosexuals.”

You can’t have it both ways.

I have seen you seem in many of your posts to like to stay with your theme of compilation of the Bible. But that was many centuries ago and long before the Reformation and as a Protestant once told me. God can use who He wants at any given time for His purposes. As to your seemingly obsession with Phelps, I believe he will have to answer to God just like all the rest of us will. I’ll leave his fate in God’s hands.

 

[KjetilK]

I have no problem with personal interpretation and historic precedent but, as a Lutheran, view these matters as a non-priority. The Church of Norway ordains female priests/ bishops; is the Mass invalid in those parishes/ dioceses?

What is the precedence of treating this question as an adiaphoron? I see none, and the Church Fathers surely didn’t. With regards to your last question, I do not receive communion administered by a woman priest (or a male ‘priest’ ordained by a woman bishop). She (or he) does not have the authority to make Christ present in the sacrament, and it thus has everything to do with the salvation of God’s people (cf. your comment to JonNC). This has to do with sacramental assurance.

I would rather wait for years for a pastor than have a woman pretending to be a priest.

 

[PRmerger]

But yes indeed I very much like to use the mind God gave me as well as the heart, rather than being told by other humans what I must believe.

Incidentally, I am quite sure you live your life in a lot o’ different ways believing what you’ve been told by other humans.

So it’s peculiar that you object to this, when you actually espouse it. Every day of your life.

 

[pablope]

Jon, y

So if a parish must wait years for a male priest, that is acceptable?

Yes…this is what catholics would do…and put our trust in Divine Providence that God would provide. What we would do is to pray, and pray, and pray…unceasingly…till God sends someone…through the Bishop, through the church.