Denominations which allow Women Pastors.

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Bishop would have represented… but would that give him your definition of infallibility and not people who are not bishops?
Followers of Christ, Christians (whether bishop or not) are part of the Chruch and thus have your definition of infallibility.
Oh, which by the way…
Us non Bishops, we all agree on the same books books as the bishops. Not because Bishops told us so (though many out there may do so cuz of that) but because we look into it ourselves too…
Which we can do because we are part of the Chruch too, because we are Christians.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
The problem is that it was never specified what infallibility consists of. And it came off as an authority and perfection comment.
“Because the Church has been right and because the Church says so”
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Well, only in the sense that it is indeed true that the ONLY way we know that, say Hebrews is inspired is…“because the Church says so.”

We would not know it any other way.
An argumentation from authority without establishing other grounds (Like identity) is fallacious. And sadly, one used ad nauseum here. I have fallen for it as well :o
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I don’t understand what you mean here, Jose.
 
SteveVH said:
An what evidence do you have that the Church yielded to the Holy Spirit when discerning the canon of Scripture? And what evidence do you have that the Church does not constantly yield to the Holy Spirit in matters of faith and morals. Who makes the call?

Here’s the deal, Seeker. We have had some pretty crumby, if not downright “bad” popes in our history. According to their behavior one would not necessarily come to the conclusion that they ever yielded to the Holy Spirit. Yet not one contradicting doctrine has ever been inserted into Catholic teaching by one of these “bad popes”. In other words, the Church was prevented from error, even when we had a less than desirable person at the helm.
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Well in order to decide which books would be ideal for the Christian they would obviously have to talk to the Holy Spirit. Just to come up with the ideal of putting script together and printing the Gospel would be the movement of the Spirit, but yielding to it is actually doing it… putting scripts together in a cannon and printing.
Who makes the call?
no one, trees are identified by their fruits.

No, other wise the pope would have not to have apologized for the sins of the Church, because of the popes you were referring to…
Which by the way is suppose to lead the Church…and not be the Church (or a group of high religious officials).
in my opinion, they are suppose to set example for the Church.
 
TheSeeker2014 said:
Bishop would have represented… but would that give him your definition of infallibility and not people who are not bishops?
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So all the followers of Christ got together, let their bishop know what they wanted to keep in the NT and what they wanted to reject?

Can you provide some evidence for this? All of them got together where?
Logistically speaking, I can’t imagine how that would work.
Oh, which by the way…
Us non Bishops, we all agree on the same books books as the bishops. Not because Bishops told us so (though many out there may do so cuz of that) but because we look into it ourselves too…
Which we can do because we are part of the Chruch too, because we are Christians.
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Well, as I’ve asked you before, what criteria did you use, when you looked into it yourself, to determine that Hebrews was inspired?

If you could just offer the criteria that would be helpful. And also where you got the criteria?
 
PRmerger said:
Infallible and sinless are not synonymous.

The correct term is impeccable.

The pope may be infallible but he is not impeccable.

Well, I can think of millions of folks who, at this very moment, are not in a fallen state.
Baptism removed their state of being fallen…
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ok lets write it again…
infallible
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.
are we infallible to sin if we have the Holy Spirit in us? no the ability is there
-meaning are we in cable of sinning which is making a mistake
Is the church infallible if they have the Holy Spirit in it? no the ability is there

The pope may be infallible but he is not impeccable.👍 even though it is odd this popped up.

You can be baptist stop following God and be in a fallen state…
making mistakes is because of a fallen state
sinning which everyone does (even the pope as you suggested) sins because he and everyone else is man and is in a fallen state until we are redeemed fully after our first death.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, only in the sense that it is indeed true that the ONLY way we know that, say Hebrews is inspired is…“because the Church says so.”

We would not know it any other way.
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Actually, for hundreds of years the Church understood Hebrews to have been written by Paul.

But there is a lot more reasoning behind the “Church says so”. The text was used in the Liturgy, the Fathers used it, it was quoted from in Church encyclicals. It didn’t pop out of thin air and the Church declared it so. There is great reasoning behind the Church saying so in the exercise of Her authority.
PRmerger said:
I don’t understand what you mean here, Jose.
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See your initial comment above. “The only way we know Hebrews is inspired is because the Church says so.”

Yes, the Church makes a declaration based on the factors I stated above. Again it didn’t just pop out of nowhere. Although it appears to have been for lack of a definitive author.

But also, because of Sacred Tradition - the Church can say so.

It is not saying so out of spite or out of unreasonable argumentation.

That’s what I’m referring to.
 
PRmerger said:
So all the followers of Christ got together, let their bishop know what they wanted to keep in the NT and what they wanted to reject?

Can you provide some evidence for this? All of them got together where?
Logistically speaking, I can’t imagine how that would work.

Well, as I’ve asked you before, what criteria did you use, when you looked into it yourself, to determine that Hebrews was inspired?

If you could just offer the criteria that would be helpful. And also where you got the criteria?
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no, not what I said. But if that is what you want to see, go for it because you have refused to actually read what I say. or even [listen to my] answer on some parts of the convo.
However like i stated before if one is really being led by the Spirit then they would all be led to the same. Thus we all agree on the books. Epiphany!

Already stated which led everyone on this forum to this off topic topic.
Study and prayer.

Naturally, because prayer is natural.

EDIT ]
 
PRmerger,
I must ask you

What makes you think a bishop has they ability to be led by the Holy Spirit and not the common christian man? They are both a part of the church…
How are they set apart?
Or is the common christian man not apart of the Chruch?

Just curious. Not that it matters to me, but it would be insightful on why you answer the way you do.
 
TheSeeker2014 said:
PRmerger,
I must ask you

What makes you think a bishop has they ability to be led by the Holy Spirit and not the common christian man? They are both a part of the church…
How are they set apart?
Or is the common christian man not apart of the Chruch?

Just curious. Not that it matters to me, but it would be insightful on why you answer the way you do.
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I think the misunderstandings that you seem to be having are due to the fact that you are defining certain terms differently than PR and others are. When a Roman Catholic poster refers to the ‘Church’ (capitalized), we are referring to the Roman Catholic Church. Likewise, when we say ‘Bishop’ (also capitalized) we are referring to a Roman Catholic Bishop(s). So, this entire conversation is in reference to the infallibility of the Roman Catholic Church, who originally assembled and produced the Canon of the Bible that is in general use, today (with the exception of the KJV and other versions, which have been altered in many ways from the original, by Protestants, since the “reformation”). So, you might want to reread some of the previous posts to better understand what other posters are actually referring to when they use those particular terms. Just a thought.
 
TheSeeker2014 said:
PRmerger,
I must ask you

What makes you think a bishop has they ability to be led by the Holy Spirit and not the common christian man? They are both a part of the church…
How are they set apart?
Or is the common christian man not apart of the Chruch?

Just curious. Not that it matters to me, but it would be insightful on why you answer the way you do.
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Not to speak for PR, but 🙂

Doesn’t a Bishop start his Christian life as a lay person? (we are all more or less common, are we not?)

However, there is a higher ministerial calling from withing the laity. Started with the Apostles, who then ordained the first Deacons (Acts), and who in turn ordained other Priests and other Bishops (Overseers). Scriptures is full of this order and hierarchy, as is the Sacred Tradition of the Church.
 
Telstar said:
I think the misunderstandings that you seem to be having are due to the fact that you are defining certain terms differently than PR and others are. When a Roman Catholic poster refers to the ‘Church’ (capitalized), we are referring to the Roman Catholic Church. Likewise, when we say ‘Bishop’ (also capitalized) we are referring to a Roman Catholic Bishop(s). So, this entire conversation is in reference to the infallibility of the Roman Catholic Church, who originally assembled and produced the Canon of the Bible that is in general use, today (with the exception of the KJV and other versions, which have been altered in many ways from the original, by Protestants, since the “reformation”). So, you might want to reread some of the previous posts to better understand what other posters are actually referring to when they use those particular terms. Just a thought.
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I know that. this is not why I am asking her the question.
 
TheSeeker2014 said:
ok lets write it again…
infallible
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.
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Actually, no.

That is the problem with a whole bunch of folks rejecting the Church’s teaching on infallibility, when they don’t even know what it means for the Church to be infallible.

It means this, nothing less and nothing more: the Holy Spirit prevents the Catholic Church from teaching what is true that which is false, and prevents the CC from teaching that which is false as what is true.

So, for example, a sinful pope who has a mistress and lies to his fellow bishops, will still be prevented from declaring, “I declare through my office that Jesus sinned!”
are we infallible to sin if we have the Holy Spirit in us? no the ability is there
-meaning are we in cable of sinning which is making a mistake
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No, Seeker. Making a mistake is not necessarily sinning.

For example, a child with Down Syndrome may make a mistake and put her shoes on the wrong feet. But that’s not the same thing as sinning.

I may make a mistake and put 2 cups of sugar in a recipe instead of 2 tsps, but that is not a sin.
sinning which everyone does (even the pope as you suggested) sins because he and everyone else is man and is in a fallen state until we are redeemed fully after our first death.
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Nope. Not everyone sins.

Unless you want to say that this little cutie pie has sinned? If so, what sin did she do?

 
TheSeeker2014 said:
no, not what I said. But if that is what you want to see, go for it because you have refused to actually read what I say. or even [listen to my] answer on some parts of the convo.
However like i stated before if one is really being led by the Spirit then they would all be led to the same. Thus we all agree on the books. Epiphany!

Already stated which led everyone on this forum to this off topic topic.
Study and prayer.

Naturally, because prayer is natural.

EDIT ]
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Seeker, you are not being clear.

Are you saying that you prayed, and studied and God told you that Hebrews is inspired?
And that the Shepherd of Hermas is not?

What, exactly, did you “study” that told you these things?

If you “studied” the books you concluded certain things. What did you conclude? And what prompted these conclusions?

And you did this for all 27 books, yes?

If not, then you are taking the word of the Catholic Church to tell you that the Gospel of Mark is inspired but that the Gospel of Barnabas is not.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Actually, for hundreds of years the Church understood Hebrews to have been written by Paul.

But there is a lot more reasoning behind the “Church says so”.
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Oh, to be sure.

But you and I know that we accept the book of Hebrews as being inspired for no other reason except this: the CC told us it was.
 
PRmerger said:
Oh, to be sure.

But you and I know that we accept the book of Hebrews as being inspired for no other reason except this: the CC told us it was.
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I can’t help but to agree with St. Augustine as well 😛
 
TheSeeker2014 said:
I know that. this is not why I am asking her the question.
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OK. In that case, I would offer my own opinion on your question, if you don’t mind.

The Apostles were all given special instructions and powers by Jesus, to establish His Church and follow Him by doing everything He had taught them to do. He sent them to preach the Gospel and to perform Baptisms, as well as other functions, according to the new order of Priests that He established for His Church. The Apostles were the first Bishops (elders/leaders) of the Church, appointed (ordained) directly by Him, and were also endowed with other special powers through the Holy Spirit (to forgive sins, Baptize, Break Bread, etc.), above and beyond what the other followers of Jesus received. In turn, they also ordained other Priests, Deacons and Bishops, as the Church grew.

That same direct line of Priests and Bishops has continued in an unbroken line, from that time on to the present day. Along the way, the Church Jesus founded was given the name “Roman Catholic Church”. Jesus made a promise to send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, Who would lead His Church “into all truth”, until the end, when He would come again. The Holy Spirit has done just that, and all Bishops through the centuries have been given a special gift of the Holy Spirit through their ordination in the Church. So, that is why the Bishops do have a very different gift of the Holy Spirit, and they are guided by Him to teach without error on faith and morals, particularly the Pope, who is the Bishop of Rome.
 
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