Denominations which allow Women Pastors.

[PRmerger]

Don’t put words into my mouth. I didn’t say ‘faith alone’, and I wouldn’t set up faith against reason.

Then why didn’t you mention reason? You only mentioned faith as your means by which you understand revelation.

 

[PRmerger]

If you actually read the position of the Roman Catholic Church you may find your statement lacking. The validity of the Lutheran Eucharist has never been denied by Rome but rather the role of episcopacy/ apostolic succession requiring validity of the ministry.

Can you tell us why, then, we are not permitted by our Church to receive the host in your church?

 

[Novocastrian]

Then why didn’t you mention reason? You only mentioned faith as your means by which you understand revelation.

I naively assumed that a Catholic would see no reason to read ‘faith’ as exclusive of reason. Faith is rational.

 

[PRmerger]

I think that the Holy Spirit guides the Church to teach the truth, but not infallibly so; i.e. the Church and her members retain the free will to disobey the Holy Spirit and teach error.

Then you ought to be very very careful whenever you quote from, say, the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, because they may have been included in the NT canon erroneously by the CC.

And you ought to be very, very careful whenever you proclaim that St. Paul preached the risen Christ as the crucified one because it was the Pauline epistles, discerned by the CC (perhaps erroneously per your argument) that proclaim this.

The heavenly liturgy as described in the Revelation to St. John seems to portray the Lamb as both slain and alive. Perhaps the best way of looking is to remember that St. Paul preached the risen Christ as the crucified one.

 

[PRmerger]

I naively assumed that a Catholic would see no reason to read ‘faith’ as exclusive of reason. Faith is rational.

I am confused. When we say Faith and Reason are both Catholic channels of apprehending God, you seem to imply that whenever we say “Reason” it always assumes “Faith” as well?

Just like when we say Scripture and Tradition are both Catholic channels of God’s Word.
So when I as a Catholic say that we know through Tradition that Mary was assumed into heaven, you can assume that I mean we know this through Scripture as well?

That is, whenever we say one, we automatically mean the other as well?

So with Science and Faith–both lauded by Catholicism–when I say that I know by Faith that the Trinity is true, I am also saying that I know by Science that the Trinity is true?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Can you tell us why, then, we are not permitted by our Church to receive the host in your church?

Can you cite a document that says Catholics can not receive holy Communion in a Lutheran church?

My reading of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue is the recommendation that Lutherans can receive holy Communion in Catholic churches but that the issue of Lutheran Orders does not, at this time, allow reciprocation.

 

[GKC]

Can you cite a document that says Catholics can not receive holy Communion in a Lutheran church?

My reading of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue is the recommendation that Lutherans can receive holy Communion in Catholic churches but that the issue of Lutheran Orders does not, at this time, allow reciprocation.

But the Dialogue is not a defined teaching of the RCC.

Canon 844, in the 1983 Code of Canon Law, might have a bearing 0n it.

GKC

 

[adrift]

My reading of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue is the recommendation that Lutherans can receive holy Communion in Catholic churches but that the issue of Lutheran Orders does not, at this time, allow reciprocation.

Guidelines for the Reception of Communion

Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

If you actually read the position of the Roman Catholic Church you may find your statement lacking. The validity of the Lutheran Eucharist has never been denied by Rome but rather the role of episcopacy/ apostolic succession requiring validity of the ministry.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church has not denied that the Lutheran Eucharist is the same as the Catholic Eucharist and that that the Catholic Church only questions the validity of the ministry? How is that different.

Your quotes do not support this position. What I see you quoting is the agreement that the Eucharist is not symbolic.

 

[PRmerger]

Can you cite a document that says Catholics can not receive holy Communion in a Lutheran church?

My reading of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue is the recommendation that Lutherans can receive holy Communion in Catholic churches but that the issue of Lutheran Orders does not, at this time, allow reciprocation.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2T.HTM

Please pay special attention to this (bold mine): “For the cases mentioned in §§2, 3, and 4, the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops** is not to issue general norms **except after consultation at least with the local competent authority of the interested non-Catholic Church or community.”

 

[Sy_Noe]

I grew up in a Catholic environment. I am sorry to say that this environment did not bring me closer to knowing God or accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior. I woman pastor found me after I had wandered in the darkness for many years. I would not have listened to a priest or a man. They would have just tried to make me a conquest or simply not give me the time of day. This pastor loved me and showed me the love that Christ had for me. My wife and I will never forget how she started us on the path with God. For anyone to say that women have no place in the leadership of a church, shows a complete breakdown of Christ’s concepts of reaching everyone for the glory of God. We do not live in the same time period of Paul. What is required is a balance. This was how God created us. We have turned it into something dark and incorrect. Perhaps it is time for all of us to look at how we can work together help promote God’s Kingdom to those that have yet to hear of it?

My nature is such that I would not be inclined to discriminate against women in this regard whether I had a positive experience with a female pastor or not. As you said we don’t live in Paul’s time. But like you I have had a female pastor impact me and my faith positively. So maybe we look at it from a different vantage point that those who haven’t had the opportunity or experience.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Guidelines for the Reception of Communion

Are you saying that the Catholic Church has not denied that the Lutheran Eucharist is the same as the Catholic Eucharist and that that the Catholic Church only questions the validity of the ministry? How is that different.

Your quotes do not support this position. What I see you quoting is the agreement that the Eucharist is not symbolic.

Using the article you cite:

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we **are not yet **fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion.

In the absence of a direct condemnation of the Lutheran Mass, the position of the Roman Catholic Church is stated in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue and is quite optimistic. The issue of the Lord’s Supper receives considerable attention in these talks unlike any other ecumenical effort with other Protestants. Consider that the Roman Catholic Church specifically condemned Anglican Orders as “Absolutely Null and Utterly Void” [Apostolicae Curae]. Yet only silence toward the Lutheran Church up until Vatican II and then much encouragement toward full communion, as I have cited.

The focus on Holy Orders affirms Apostolic Succession among some Lutherans as a good sign toward resolving the separation from the Catholic Church but the most significant consensus, per my understanding of the Dialogue, is that both churches believe the same about the Eucharist to allow future inter-communion. In-fact the Lutheran World Federation is urging the Pope to allow this at the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2017.

 

[rinnie]

My nature is such that I would not be inclined to discriminate against women in this regard whether I had a positive experience with a female pastor or not. As you said we don’t live in Paul’s time. But like you I have had a female pastor impact me and my faith positively. So maybe we look at it from a different vantage point that those who haven’t had the opportunity or experience.

I believe that Christ made Men Priests for a reason and rather or not we understand why does not really matter.

Rather or not we live in Paul’s time or Peter’s time make no difference. There is no time for God just like his commands are forever. His truth does not change. Truth never does.

The most beloved Women on earth was my finest example of a Women who obeyed God and that was the Blessed Mother.

And her Son Jesus the Son of God was an even greater impact. But gender has nothing to do with who impacts someone. All you have to do is imitate Christ and be true to impact a person.

But just because someone is a great example of their faith has nothing to do with being able to forgive sins in the name of God, administer the Sacraments, and that takes a Priest.

IT is the way Jesus set it up and we obey.

 

[PRmerger]

Using the article you cite:

In the absence of a direct condemnation of the Lutheran Mass, the position of the Roman Catholic Church is stated in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue and is quite optimistic.

Optimistic. Certainly.

Optimism implies hope for that which is not yet achieved.

QED.

Again, if things were as united as what you keep proposing, we Catholics would be permitted to receive communion in your churches.

As we cannot, we can only be optimistic.

 

[JonNC]

Optimistic. Certainly.

Optimism implies hope for that which is not yet achieved.

QED.

Again, if things were as united as what you keep proposing, we Catholics would be permitted to receive communion in your churches.

As we cannot, we can only be optimistic.

It is the great optimism we as Lutherans and Catholics should share.

But it is not yet a reality, as Pope Benedict pointed out in 2010:

“…we must not content ourselves with the successes of ecumenism over recent years, because we still cannot drink from the same chalice or gather together around the same altar.”

catholicnewsagency.com/news/unity_will_only_come_from_god_pope_says_to_lutherans/

Pray for the day.

Jon

 

[Sy_Noe]

I believe that Christ made Men Priests for a reason and rather or not we understand why does not really matter.

Rather or not we live in Paul’s time or Peter’s time make no difference. There is no time for God just like his commands are forever. His truth does not change. Truth never does.

The most beloved Women on earth was my finest example of a Women who obeyed God and that was the Blessed Mother.

And her Son Jesus the Son of God was an even greater impact. But gender has nothing to do with who impacts someone. All you have to do is imitate Christ and be true to impact a person.

But just because someone is a great example of their faith has nothing to do with being able to forgive sins in the name of God, administer the Sacraments, and that takes a Priest.

IT is the way Jesus set it up and we obey.

I wasn’t there to know if Jesus even had gender on his mind when choosing 12 and that if he had chosen more than 12 that the next several would not have been women.

 

[PRmerger]

It is the great optimism we as Lutherans and Catholics should share.

But it is not yet a reality, as Pope Benedict pointed out in 2010:

“…we must not content ourselves with the successes of ecumenism over recent years, because we still cannot drink from the same chalice or gather together around the same altar.”

catholicnewsagency.com/news/unity_will_only_come_from_god_pope_says_to_lutherans/

Pray for the day.

Jon

Indeed. Praying!

Despite poster after poster, both Lutheran and Catholic, speaking to the truth of the unity that is HOPED FOR but NOT YET ACHIEVED, there is one adamantine poster who refuses to acknowledge the truth that union is NOT THERE yet.

One has to wonder what the source of his recusant attitude is.

 

[stewstew03]

My nature is such that I would not be inclined to discriminate against women in this regard whether I had a positive experience with a female pastor or not. As you said we don’t live in Paul’s time. But like you I have had a female pastor impact me and my faith positively. So maybe we look at it from a different vantage point that those who haven’t had the opportunity or experience.

This has been brought up twice, now, and I’m having trouble figuring out why this is relevant: “we don’t live in Paul’s time.”

 

[Sy_Noe]

This has been brought up twice, now, and I’m having trouble figuring out why this is relevant: “we don’t live in Paul’s time.”

Because it was the custom in Paul’s time for women to not speak in churches and to be submissive to men. Slavery and other things were part of the culture too. Different times. Different culture. Different century. That’s why it’s relevant at least to me.

 

[stewstew03]

Because it was the custom in Paul’s time for women to not speak in churches and to be submissive to men. Slavery and other things were part of the culture too. Different times. Different culture. Different century. That’s why it’s relevant at least to me.

So was Paul unduly influenced by this culture? Was Jesus?

 

[Sy_Noe]

So was Paul unduly influenced by this culture? Was Jesus?

All I know is Paul was writing in those times.