Denying Communion to kneeling communicant.

[InnocentIII]

Chris Jacobson:

Incidentally, the practice of standing to receive communion, rather than kneeling, was brought about through disobedience.

I have never been quite sure where this idea of standing came from. I have had some experience with at least mainline Protestant churches and have never seen it done. Anglicans (even with their new liturgy) and Methodists kneel at the altar rail, Congregationalists and Prebyterians take it in their seats. I was told once by a modernist priest that it was conforming to the early church and in line with the Orthodox practice which he implied was older and therfore more reliable than ours. I know that most eastern rite Catholics do stand but that is because of the manner of communion which is administered by spoon. The latin rite way of kneeling was equally in tune with our way of receiving the Host. So if he was right we ended up with an Eastern queue (no offence intended to our beloved bretheren), a Catholic Host, and a Protestant reception in the hand. No wonder my Protestant friend thinks we are confused.

Exactly. Which is why nitpicking is so important. If you pick enough nits you end up with clean hair. It is not just about changing. What has been done in our name and with our naive complicity is to strip Latin Catholicism of its Catholicity. We are neither fish nor good red meat, more like a manufactured meat product. I genuinely believe that this has been Satan’s agenda - to destroy the Catholic Church as the authoratative voice of Christ and leave us standing for nothing, as both Our lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Akita predicted.

So pick away, chip away, and always ask WHY - why is it better, why was the Church wrong, why should we change … because when you nail the reformers down they can’t really say why.

 

[Deus_Vult]

lancelink66:

This past Sunday our Priest refused Communion to an 84 year old parishoner and left her kneeling while other parishoners had to move around her to receive the Blessed Sacrament. Our Priest also allows a Protestant man (husband of a parishoner) to receive Communion. I am writing a letter to my Bishop, and want to be direct, but charitable, and mostly effective.

Has anyone had experience with something like this?

Can a Priest be excommunicated for denying Communion in this fashion?

Can a Bishop order that communicants be denied the Eucharist if kneeling?

Is there Canon Law or instructions in the GIRM that deals specifically with this?

Thanks!

Since you mentioned it…I have a question for you all. I have a friend that is a parish priest in an Archdiocese other than my own and he told me that a Methodist minister had been coming to him and talking to him about our faith. He said the man told him that after talking with him and bible study that he was convinced of the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist…he asked if my friend would alow him to partake in the Eucharist at Mass that Sunday. My friend said that Sunday the minister came and recieved the Eucharist in tears and stayed in the sanctuary for many hours praying after Mass. Was this wrong?

 

[mercygate]

Deus Vult:

Since you mentioned it…I have a question for you all. I have a friend that is a parish priest in an Archdiocese other than my own and he told me that a Methodist minister had been coming to him and talking to him about our faith. He said the man told him that after talking with him and bible study that he was convinced of the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist…he asked if my friend would alow him to partake in the Eucharist at Mass that Sunday. My friend said that Sunday the minister came and recieved the Eucharist in tears and stayed in the sanctuary for many hours praying after Mass. Was this wrong?

Of course, it was wrong. But before I was Catholic, a Priest invited me to receive Communion in his Church without my asking (which he should not have done), and I did whenever I attended there. Ultimately, I converted. Would I have converted without this exceptional privilege? I am sure I would. Nevertheless, I will not deny that I believe many graces came to me through this “illegal” opportunity. Let it be said that when I finally approached the Church to become a member, I would not have received the Sacrament even had it been offered. I “got it.” There was more grace in the painful obedience of not receiving Communion than there would have been in receiving.

Now, this is just me. But my take would be that if somebody interested in the faith has come to accept the Real Presence, he knows enough about the faith to respect the discipline of the Church. The fact that this minister **asked **to receive the Sacrament would be, for me, a disqualifier because it would show an improper disposition.

If the request were made of me, as a Priest, I would say: I hear your heart. God is working a great grace in you. But I am a Priest of the Catholic Church; the Blessed Sacrament is not my personal property to dispense as I wish. I pray for the day that you will come to me and ask to be received fully into the Church so that you may receive the Precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord with impunity.

 

[Deus_Vult]

mercygate:

Of course, it was wrong. But before I was Catholic, a Priest invited me to receive Communion in his Church without my asking (which he should not have done), and I did whenever I attended there. Ultimately, I converted. Would I have converted without this exceptional privilege? I am sure I would. Nevertheless, I will not deny that I believe many graces came to me through this “illegal” opportunity. Let it be said that when I finally approached the Church to become a member, I would not have received the Sacrament even had it been offered. I “got it.” There was more grace in the painful obedience of not receiving Communion than there would have been in receiving.

Now, this is just me. But my take would be that if somebody interested in the faith has come to accept the Real Presence, he knows enough about the faith to respect the discipline of the Church. The fact that this minister **asked **to receive the Sacrament would be, for me, a disqualifier because it would show an improper disposition.

If the request were made of me, as a Priest, I would say: I hear your heart. God is working a great grace in you. But I am a Priest of the Catholic Church; the Blessed Sacrament is not my personal property to dispense as I wish. I pray for the day that you will come to me and ask to be received fully into the Church so that you may receive the Precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord with impunity.

I asked my friend why he did it and his response was the following quote…“When, in the Ordinary’s (a Catholic bishop) judgement, a grave necessity arises, Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church, who ask for them of their own will, provided they give evidence of holding the Catholic faith regarding these sacraments and posses the required dispositions.” CCC#1401, Page 353-354 he said the minister was clear about his understanding of the Eucharist and denounced his protestant view of communion.

Please understand I am only asking others advice because I am still struggling with what he did myself. I have alot of respect for my friend and for one he played a huge part in my coming to the Church…I know his intentions were in the right place…I’m just not sure he did the right thing in this case.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Deus Vult:

I asked my friend why he did it and his response was the following quote…

"When, in the Ordinary’s (a Catholic bishop) judgement, a grave necessity arises,
​

Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church, who ask for them of their own will, provided they give evidence of holding the Catholic faith regarding these sacraments and posses the required dispositions." CCC#1401, Page 353-354 He said the minister was clear about his understanding of the Eucharist and denounced his protestant view of communion.

I know his intentions were in the right place…I’m just not sure he did the right thing in this case.

Deus Vult,

If you reread the part of your post that I underlined, you will easily see that he did not “do the right thing.” He was “nice,” and many problems have entered the Church disguised as “nice”
by persons whose “intentions were in the right place.” The Church is not the personal fief of this priest.

I really wish you would bring this to his attention.

God bless,

Anna PS And I don’t believe that Deus Vults this!​

 

[lancelink66]

MikeWM:

On the face of it, this is plain wrong.

It’s unclear whether you’ve actually spoken to the Priest though. If not, you really ought to speak to him before you write to his Bishop. There could be a reason for his actions, admittedly I can’t think of anything obvious, but you should at least ask the Priest about it first.

Mike

Thank you for the counsel. I hesitated before sending the letter as a result of it, and have a meeting with the Priest tomorrow. I direct a school and know that I can’t change what I can’t see. I will let you know how it goes.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

You can try talking to the priest before you write to the bishop- or the dean. Be gentle. If you don’t like the asnwer you get (and you probably won’t), wait two days to go over your letter before mailing it to the dean or bishop.

We’ve had the occasional woman veiled come to our daily Mass, and kneel. I thought maybe they were trying to trip Father up, but I think it is because we have Mass early in the morning. Our priest has never missed a beat, and while he is middle-aged, he is a post-Vatican II priest. I do have to admit- One time, I wasn’t expecting one of the veil ladies to pop down on her knees in front of me in the Communion procession, and I almost tripped over her. All three of us- the veil lady, Father and me- would have made quite a tangled mess, not to mention the poor Blessed Sacrament. Fortunately, my guardian angel was working overtime, and I came to an abrupt halt before I could do damage.

 

[Deus_Vult]

Anna Elizabeth:

Deus Vult,

If you reread the part of your post that I underlined, you will easily see that he did not “do the right thing.” He was “nice,” and many problems have entered the Church disguised as “nice”
by persons whose “intentions were in the right place.” The Church is not the personal fief of this priest.

I really wish you would bring this to his attention.

God bless,

Anna PS And I don’t believe that Deus Vults this!

I agree with you…that is why I have been troubled with his actions. I have discussed it with him on many occasion. I was just looking for friendly advice. Thanks for yours.

 

[Mysty101]

lancelink66:

This past Sunday our Priest refused Communion to an 84 year old parishoner and left her kneeling while other parishoners had to move around her to receive the Blessed Sacrament. Our Priest also allows a Protestant man (husband of a parishoner) to receive Communion. I am writing a letter to my Bishop, and want to be direct, but charitable, and mostly effective.

Has anyone had experience with something like this?

Can a Priest be excommunicated for denying Communion in this fashion?

Can a Bishop order that communicants be denied the Eucharist if kneeling?

Is there Canon Law or instructions in the GIRM that deals specifically with this?

Thanks!

This is a very sad situation, but the bottom line is the norm is standing—

GIRM160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

I don’t know if this was the case, but usually a refusal comes after the person has been instructed many times.

Of course the Priest is wrong, but why would an 84 year old woman want to antagonize her Pastor in this manner?

As I said in another thread, the Catholic Church is not a democracy. Obedience is a high priority. Many Protestant sects do believe in the real presence–the real thing that separates them from us is their refusal to submit to authority.

Yes there was a letter that states a person may not be denied Communion, and should not be imposed upon if they do not follow the norm, but this certainly does not mean that a person should defy their Pastor or Bishop, if he decides it in not in the best interest of his congregation for anyone to ignore the norm.

It is situations like this which convince a Bishop that it is not wise to allow the indult Mass.

 

[mercygate]

Deus Vult:

I asked my friend why he did it and his response was the following quote…“When, in the Ordinary’s (a Catholic bishop) judgement, a grave necessity arises, Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church, who ask for them of their own will, provided they give evidence of holding the Catholic faith regarding these sacraments and posses the required dispositions.” CCC#1401, Page 353-354 he said the minister was clear about his understanding of the Eucharist and denounced his protestant view of communion.

Please understand I am only asking others advice because I am still struggling with what he did myself. I have alot of respect for my friend and for one he played a huge part in my coming to the Church…I know his intentions were in the right place…I’m just not sure he did the right thing in this case.

Interesting that he should quote a canon. Very reassuring – except for the part that says the bishop is the one to make the decision, and not just any bishop: the ordinary.

Ah well. Who knows where grace will take this one? I hope the minister recognizes the impossibility of his present situation and comes into the Church. If he is currently a pastor, things get complicated. You might suggest that your priest friend refer this man to the Coming Home Network.

 

[msproule]

Mysty101:

This is a very sad situation, but the bottom line is the norm is standing—

No, the botom line is that she is NOT to be denied Holy Communion!

…but why would an 84 year old woman want to antagonize her Pastor in this manner?

You say this like she is a Rainbow Sasher!

As I said in another thread, the Catholic Church is not a democracy. Obedience is a high priority. Many Protestant sects do believe in the real presence–the real thing that separates them from us is their refusal to submit to authority.

Still, a parish priest has NO right to allow Protestants to receive Holy Communion.

Yes there was a letter that states a person may not be denied Communion, and should not be imposed upon if they do not follow the norm, but this certainly does not mean that a person should defy their Pastor or Bishop, if he decides it in not in the best interest of his congregation for anyone to ignore the norm.

In addition to standing, we are instructed to make a bow of the head prior to reception. Yet I see hundreds of people each week that do not bow their heads. They are also acting in defiance of their Pastor and Bishop. They all need to be re-instructed, but never denied Holy Communion.

It is situations like this which convince a Bishop that it is not wise to allow the indult Mass.

In all sincerity, this is one of the most illogical conclusion I have ever read on these forums!

 

[lancelink66]

I did speak to my Pastor yesterday, directly. It was a valuable experience. No, I did not like his answer. It was something along the lines of: She’s stubborn. I told her about this before. no one is going to tell me how to perform Mass after 40 year. I asked her to offer this up for the sake of uniformity, as it’s the norm.

However, I had already written a letter to the Bishop before my meeting (but had not yet mailed it). After meeting with the Pastor directly I had a deeper understanding of his reasons and more compassion for him. When I got back to my office I restructured the letter and believe that it came from a much better place - explaining what happened, seeking the Bishop’s direction and for unity within our Parish, rather than simply “tattling” on my pastor (which is where I was coming from before). I mailed the letter this morning and will inform you of the reply. Please pray that he handles this matter with Christ’s justice.

 

[InnocentIII]

Mysty101:

Many Protestant sects do believe in the real presence–the real thing that separates them from us is their refusal to submit to authority.

This is not true. The Lutherans have a form of Real Presence but it is transient and is dependant on the inner belief of the communicant. The Anglo-Catholic wing of the Anglican Church believe in it but their orders are invalid and they are in fact Catholics manque. All other Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence. This is why changing the manner of reception will not bring Catholics and Protestants any closer.

 

[carlycatholic]

re the replies about the “chip, chip, chipping” away at the Mass after Novus Ordo was instituted (and before), some background can be found by googling Archbishop Rembert Weakland. The item about four-down from the top, while something of a polemic where a grain of salt may be called for, does give an interesting view with some documentation.

 

[MikeWM]

lancelink66:

I did speak to my Pastor yesterday, directly. It was a valuable experience. No, I did not like his answer. It was something along the lines of: She’s stubborn. I told her about this before. no one is going to tell me how to perform Mass after 40 year. I asked her to offer this up for the sake of uniformity, as it’s the norm.

However, I had already written a letter to the Bishop before my meeting (but had not yet mailed it). After meeting with the Pastor directly I had a deeper understanding of his reasons and more compassion for him. When I got back to my office I restructured the letter and believe that it came from a much better place - explaining what happened, seeking the Bishop’s direction and for unity within our Parish, rather than simply “tattling” on my pastor (which is where I was coming from before). I mailed the letter this morning and will inform you of the reply. Please pray that he handles this matter with Christ’s justice.

That seems fair. I’m glad you spoke to the Priest first. While I don’t have experience here, I think (a) you are always better with a full perspective of the issues, and (b) if you hadn’t, it seems to me very likely the first thing the Bishop would say to you is ‘well what did the Priest say about it?’

It does seem unclear what is to be done. It seems quite clear that she shouldn’t be denied Communion for kneeling, but on the other hand it does say the norm is standing and those who don’t stand should be cathechised afterwards. If the lady has been told time and time again that she shouldn’t kneel, and so she’s directly defying the Priest, then it seems unclear what should happen. (Note that I’m not saying anything about history, or what is right, or what ought to be! I’m just interested in understanding the rules as they stand right now).

If nothing else, the Bishop might be able to offer his opinion on this question - alternatively you’ve given him something to have a headache over…

Mike

 

[Confiteor]

MikeWM:

It seems quite clear that she shouldn’t be denied Communion for kneeling, but on the other hand it does say the norm is standing and those who don’t stand should be cathechised afterwards.
Mike

Everytime I’ve read the line about “catechized afterwards,” I’ve wondered what exactly can be said in the way of genuine “catechesis.” I mean, other than “my way or the highway.” i.e. be obedient or else. Apart from a fairly arbitrary decision on the part of the American bishops to vote for standing --most likely to keep the line moving more fluidly–there is NO theological support for receiving standing. In fact, kneeling seems more in keeping with the “every knee will bend” that is called for in the Bible. I’ve noticed in parishes with especially reverent clergy that the parishioners are encouraged to genuflect before receiving and/or kneel to receive. Not a big deal where it is part of the parish culture because the people in line are prepared for someone to kneel in front of them. Nor does it call attention to the communicant. Even in my parish, the rare communicant that kneels is a little bit of a distraction but not usually a true hazard. Setting the obedience criterion aside for a moment, I think the priests and bishops should ease up on this and let people err on the side of more reverence. After all, how will they explain this on Judgment Day? Sure, God, she was 84 years old and she was only kneeling in reverence and Rome did instruct us NOT to deny communion, but she was “stubborn”?

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Confiteor:

Everytime I’ve read the line about “catechized afterwards,” I’ve wondered what exactly can be said in the way of genuine “catechesis.” I mean, other than “my way or the highway.” i.e. be obedient or else. Apart from a fairly arbitrary decision on the part of the American bishops to vote for standing --most likely to keep the line moving more fluidly–there is NO theological support for receiving standing. In fact, kneeling seems more in keeping with the “every knee will bend” that is called for in the Bible. I’ve noticed in parishes with especially reverent clergy that the parishioners are encouraged to genuflect before receiving and/or kneel to receive. Not a big deal where it is part of the parish culture because the people in line are prepared for someone to kneel in front of them. Nor does it call attention to the communicant. Even in my parish, the rare communicant that kneels is a little bit of a distraction but not usually a true hazard. Setting the obedience criterion aside for a moment, I think the priests and bishops should ease up on this and let people err on the side of more reverence. After all, how will they explain this on Judgment Day? Sure, God, she was 84 years old and she was only kneeling in reverence and Rome did instruct us NOT to deny communion, but she was “stubborn”?

To all that you said :tiphat:

I will add that it would have been less of a spectacle had the Pastor exercised charity and just gave her communion. How many years can she still kneel? How many years is she still going to be alive? How much would it have really killed him to just give her Holy Communion?

I mean, we have parishes where clowns are up on the altar, where there is gross abuse by removing or adding things to parts of the Mass when it is strictly forbidden, allowing lay people to do things they are not authorized to do in the liturgy, and so much more.

This doesn’t include the people talking through mass, coming late, leaving early, chewing bubblegum, playing nintendo, reading bulletins, making goo-goo faces at the baby in front of them through half the mass, coming to church with half their rear-end hanging out of their skirts and tops cut low enough that you wonder when something is going to drop out! Yet nowhere are they instructed in “catechesis” personally. In fact, in most parishes I’ve attended, you don’t even hear these things addressed anymore. I’m waiting for the MP3 players to make a debut during the homilies yet.

Its amazing that when a transgression happens on one end of the spectrum, it involves clowns or abuses so flagrant that it defies comprehension. Yet, it continues despite a local bishop’s awareness of it. Then, we get an 84 year old woman, down on her knees to get Holy Communion and a Holy War ensues.

Good Grief!

 

[JNB]

One thing that I think will be a negative mark on the papacy of JPII us that the Vatican allowed Bishop conferences to get away with trash like this. By the CDW allowing GIRM “norms” on various postures(and again norm does not equate to law) in the US to eliminate even more tradition from a missal that has allready been stripped from tradition, and also making more difficult to restore traditional practices outside of the indult mass. Obviously the CDW did not mean to ban kneeling for communion, hence the 3 letters on the subject from the CDW, but still this has caused confusion and let modernists to another excuse to either ban or stop restoration of traditional practices. Sadly things like this will be part of JPIIs legacy.

To all that you said :tiphat:

I will add that it would have been less of a spectacle had the Pastor exercised charity and just gave her communion. How many years can she still kneel? How many years is she still going to be alive? How much would it have really killed him to just give her Holy Communion?

I mean, we have parishes where clowns are up on the altar, where there is gross abuse by removing or adding things to parts of the Mass when it is strictly forbidden, allowing lay people to do things they are not authorized to do in the liturgy, and so much more.

This doesn’t include the people talking through mass, coming late, leaving early, chewing bubblegum, playing nintendo, reading bulletins, making goo-goo faces at the baby in front of them through half the mass, coming to church with half their rear-end hanging out of their skirts and tops cut low enough that you wonder when something is going to drop out! Yet nowhere are they instructed in “catechesis” personally. In fact, in most parishes I’ve attended, you don’t even hear these things addressed anymore. I’m waiting for the MP3 players to make a debut during the homilies yet.

Its amazing that when a transgression happens on one end of the spectrum, it involves clowns or abuses so flagrant that it defies comprehension. Yet, it continues despite a local bishop’s awareness of it. Then, we get an 84 year old woman, down on her knees to get Holy Communion and a Holy War ensues.

Good Grief!
[/quote]

 

[Mysty101]

Originally Posted by Mysty101
Many Protestant sects do believe in the real presence–the real thing that separates them from us is their refusal to submit to authority

.

InnocentIII:

This is not true. The Lutherans have a form of Real Presence but it is transient and is dependant on the inner belief of the communicant. The Anglo-Catholic wing of the Anglican Church believe in it but their orders are invalid and they are in fact Catholics manque. All other Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence. This is why changing the manner of reception will not bring Catholics and Protestants any closer.

What is not true? The point I am emphesizing is the priority of obedience. (Certainly not above Belief in the Real Presence, but high up there)

 

[Mysty101]

msproule:

No, the botom line is that she is NOT to be denied Holy Communion!
You say this like she is a Rainbow Sasher!

We disagree on the bottom line. She was instructed and defied her Pastor.

Still, a parish priest has NO right to allow Protestants to receive Holy Communion.

I agree—where did I say anything different?

In addition to standing, we are instructed to make a bow of the head prior to reception. Yet I see hundreds of people each week that do not bow their heads. They are also acting in defiance of their Pastor and Bishop. They all need to be re-instructed, but never denied Holy Communion.

Where did this come into the discussion? I do know the norms. Who was reinstructed on the norm to bow and refused to comply?
Mysty:

It is situations like this which convince a Bishop that it is not wise to allow the indult Mass.

ms:

In all sincerity, this is one of the most illogical conclusion I have ever read on these forums

Yes, and many agree with you. This is why many Bishops are not willing to grant the indult.