Denying service for gay marriage compared to

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How would you respond to this?

You state: It’s acceptable to deny service to a gay marriage on the basis that your beliefs are that same-sex marriages are immoral, and participating in one by offering a service is immoral. Forcing someone to provide a service for a gay wedding against their religious beliefs is wrong.
  • They state: Then you must agree that a person can deny an interracial couple service for their wedding because they believe it’s immoral to support an interracial marriage.
 
The church is against discrimination of any type.

If you gave a robber the keys to a bank you would be helping them to sin against a commandment. This can be compared to gay marriage.it has nothing to do with discrimination, or lack of love.

I would ask tthe person comparing this to interracial marrrige to point to the commandment that states interracial marriage is a sin.
 
Opposition to interracial marriage is not based on religion, because it is nowhere in the Bible. There are examples of mixed race couples in the Bible, i.e Moses’s wife was a Kushite (in what is now modern Ethiopia) and St Paul was the child of a Greek father and Jewish mother.

Opposition to mixed race marriage is therefore based solely on racial prejudice and hatred, without any rational basis, and therefore would fall under the category of unfair discrimination.

Homosexual acts are however intrinsically disordered and homosexual marriages are not valid sacraments, so refusing service to them is not unfair discrimination.

Besides why do they insist so strongly that businesses who do not believe in same sex marriage somehow have a DUTY to accommodate their whims? Isn’t that reverse discrimination?
 
I tend to lean towards arguments against gay marriage based on natural law, rather than belief. We don’t perform gay marriages because it’s wrong, and we shouldn’t be forced to perform gay marriages because it’s wrong. Of course, that argument doesn’t go that far in a pluralistic society. I think we cling to the religious freedom argument as a method of last resort. But I think it can be worth noting that a given religious belief can be wrong (say for example, if someone believes giving medical care to children is wrong), and I don’t have any trouble requiring that a parent bring a very sick child to the hospital. I think we need to work to order society toward a genuine love of God and a correct interpretation of his will and that it has less to do with what some people believe and more about what is truly good or bad for society.

So in this case, the answer is that gay marriage hurts society and interracial marriage does not. Marriage is a right for everyone, including gay people, and marriage is one man and one women, so it does not make sense to deny marriage to a man and woman of a different race but it is logical to deny attempting to marry two men, because that is not marriage.
 
How would you respond to this?

You state: It’s acceptable to deny service to a gay marriage on the basis that your beliefs are that same-sex marriages are immoral, and participating in one by offering a service is immoral. Forcing someone to provide a service for a gay wedding against their religious beliefs is wrong.
  • They state: Then you must agree that a person can deny an interracial couple service for their wedding because they believe it’s immoral to support an interracial marriage.
My response would be - “Yes you are quite right.”

In my view, at it’s core, we are talking about the freedom of a business owner to choose which contracts to enter into. The particular reasons are less important.
If the couple wish me to respect their desire to get married…It is fair and reasonable that they respect my desire not to participate.

Of course there are many subtleties that can crop up in these things and one could easily find oneself in a contract that they would not have entered had they known…then the only think to do is to execute the contract precisely and move on.

That said, I would agree that there are areas where the nature of the business or profession where one cannot make such choices. Things that relate to health and safety for example.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James
 
Businesses deny service all the time. Some bars / restaurants deny service to motorcycle riders. Businesses routinely ask gun owners (an actual civil right) not to carry at their establishment. It’s just these are not covered under the veil of political correctness. To say a business can’t deny service or has to comply with what a customer wants is just not a reality.

On the positive side, here is the GoFundMe site for the pizza shop which was targeted by the anti-Christians. gofundme.com/memoriespizza

$495,000 as of this post in 1 day. I take this as a statement that A LOT of people are critical of the unfair treatment this small business has suffered.
 
How an interracial marriage is going to be immoral and against someone’s religious belief if no current existent religion has an official teaching that states that marriage between two people of a different race is sinful?

Now some political organizations do held that belief but if no existing religion holds that belief, no you cannot agree that it is immoral because it is not a religious belief it is a political belief.

Do not let yourself be dragged in the emotions of the debate. Think logically and use common sense when you read the arguments given.
 
The church is against discrimination of any type.
This is not true. To “discriminate” simply means to observe a difference. Whenever you make a choice, you have discriminated. Example: when you buy a new car, you check out its features and make a decision based on the differences of the various models.
 
Opposition to interracial marriage is not based on religion, because it is nowhere in the Bible. There are examples of mixed race couples in the Bible, i.e Moses’s wife was a Kushite (in what is now modern Ethiopia) and St Paul was the child of a Greek father and Jewish mother.

Opposition to mixed race marriage is therefore based solely on racial prejudice and hatred, without any rational basis, and therefore would fall under the category of unfair discrimination.

Homosexual acts are however intrinsically disordered and homosexual marriages are not valid sacraments, so refusing service to them is not unfair discrimination.

Besides why do they insist so strongly that businesses who do not believe in same sex marriage somehow have a DUTY to accommodate their whims? Isn’t that reverse discrimination?
Also,to refuse someone service based on their race is blatant discrimination.
Re SS couples,how would one know they are gay in the first place,if not for the SS couple blatantly showcasing their private,personal sexual lifestyle?
It is a specious argument that boils down to nothing more than the gay community forcing their disordered lifestyle on the rest of society.That such a small minority can dictate the norms of society just shows how confused and misguided we have become as a society.
 
People get confused about discrimination, which, as someone just pointed out, is merely the legitimate intellectual act of distinguishing one thing from another.

The kind of “discrimination” that is rightly to be rejected is that which entails actions against a person simply because they are a person with human rights. Since a person’s race is utterly incidental to their human dignity as a person, no one should deny them basic human rights on that basis alone, for example, the right to marry another person of their choice.

Regarding simple contractual business decisions as to whom one offers services, if it is a matter of refusing a person simply because they are a person, that is clearly wrong.

But when one is asked to perform a special service that involves an act contrary to the interests of the business owner or the sincerely-held principles of that owner or the common good, one has a right to refuse that particular service. For example, that is why a Jewish baker ought not to be forced to bake a cake in honor of the Nazis, or, a Muslim restaurant ought not to be forced to serve pork.

We do not see such examples in the public media for the simple reason that they do not serve the liberal agenda to discriminate against Christians.
 
…That such a small minority can dictate the norms of society just shows how confused and misguided we have become as a society.
It is not just a small minority. Fr. Mitch Pacwa pointed out that you will find homosexuals counter-protesting outside abortion clinics. One might wonder why homosexuals need abortion. They don’t, of course, but since the Supreme Court decision striking down anti-sodomy laws, they have joined the larger liberal political coalition and get tremendous support from them.
 
Ask them to explain what moral standard they are appealing to when making these statements. Since I believe they are appealing to the standard of “tolerence,” ask them if they think (not feel) it’s right for a gun business owner to discriminate against a racist, who might use such weapons against the object of their hatred. Ask them if they think it’s discriminatory to ban a convicted pedophile from schools?

The point of this exercise is not to declare these practices as moral, to declare them immoral, or even to say they are comparable. The point is to show that tolerence in itself is not enough to show whether an action should be discriminated against or not, because otherwise all actions must be tolerated, including murder and rape. A higher level of moral standard must apply.

Modern thought, however, does not have such a standard, for it’s moral standard is based not in Divine Command, nor in natural law, but rather in the power of the State, meaning that those with power determine what is righteous. Morality is based on the whims of the age’s fads. Why do you think these people work so hard to legalize these things? It’s because it is not morally correct, it is not safe, until it is written in positive law. Therefore, they work to have the State legalize gay “marriage” or define a human being as a post-womb child, and so forth.

They are the neo-fascists: if the State (notice how moderns capitalize “state” like Christians capitalize God?) can define what marriage and what a human is, then why can’t it define a human being as, say, a non-Jew? What if, in the next age, the State defines a human being as a non-homosexual?

However, just as Chesterton wrote in The Man who was Thursday, their are two kinds of “anarchists” (he means intellectual anarchists; those who rebel against tradition and the like), those who are innocent, the manipulated, those who do not know what the ideas actual point to, and those who are guilty, the high priesthood, who really do know what the logical end of their ideas are, and find joy in it :mad: :mad: :mad:

To really learn the errors of ideas, one must look at their logical beginnings (axioms, a priori assumptions, etc. Modern Biblical Scholarship has a tendency to assume miracles are impossible a priori, and thus begs the question against the Christian, as well as being anti-science), and their logical ends (most people don’t take their beliefs to their logical conclusion. Materialism ends with nihilism, yet Gnu Atheists talk about how great the world is without religion 🤷 I have respect for Nieztche because he walks to the end of his logical cliff (and over it, sadly). Moderns (English flatheads 😛 )avoid the logical ends of their nihilistic worldview by indulging in food, sex, American Idol, and other distractions).

To convince others of your side, however, not only do you need to examine their ideas coldly, but also examine the persons’ heart warmly. As Bishop Fulton Sheen was fond of saying, do not just look at what a person says, but why they say it. Some people just won’t be convinced, as they are stubbornly in sin. Jesus says to wipe the dirt off your feet and move one (pray for them, because Christ also talks about how he will punish them worse than Sodom 😦 ).

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
How would you respond to this?

You state: It’s acceptable to deny service to a gay marriage on the basis that your beliefs are that same-sex marriages are immoral, and participating in one by offering a service is immoral. Forcing someone to provide a service for a gay wedding against their religious beliefs is wrong.
  • They state: Then you must agree that a person can deny an interracial couple service for their wedding because they believe it’s immoral to support an interracial marriage.
Denying that an interracial union can be a marriage is to say that there is some fundamental difference between humans of different races which might lead to (sexual) unions involving people of different races being different types of things than unions of people of the same race. But there is no such difference.

Denying that a same sex union can be a marriage is to say that there is some fundamental difference between humans of different sexes which might lead to (sexual) unions involving people of different sexes being different types of things than unions of people of the same sex. To say that this is false is to say that sex has nothing to do with sex.

Further, the objection to interracial marriage is in fact racial discrimination by definition because it treats people of different races as different kinds of people .

Contrary to the way that it is popularly presented, opposition to same sex union is not in fact discrimination based on sexual orientation, because the sexual attraction of the people involved doesn’t come into consideration when denying services. A Christian baker would refuse to participate in a same sex wedding ceremony even if the two people involved were known to be straight. Rather, it is discrimination (in the technical sense of finding a difference) based on sex, because it says that the different sexes are in fact different sexes. It says that men and women are actually different.

So these are really different types of things and so could at least potentially have different types of answers. And frankly, if we’re going to err, I think we should avoid erring on the side of forcing people to do things they are opposed to, when there are many other people around who are not opposed who will do it.
 
I wonder what Mother Theresa would do? 🙂

Also, I’d be interested in hearing from a lawyer or legal expert on the viability of defending the right to refuse based on the constitution and civil law.
 
People get confused about discrimination, which, as someone just pointed out, is merely the legitimate intellectual act of distinguishing one thing from another.
“When it comes to discrimination, we have to be willing to distinguish between different types of discrimination. Discriminating between different concepts is called intelligence. Refusing to lump all forms of discrimination together is called common sense. It is what keeps us from having blind bus drivers.” – Prof. M. Adams
The kind of “discrimination” that is rightly to be rejected is that which entails actions against a person simply because they are a person with human rights.
I would disagree with this. The kind we should reject is that which is based on something a person cannot control.
Since a person’s race is utterly incidental to their human dignity as a person, no one should deny them basic human rights on that basis alone, for example, the right to marry another person of their choice.
We have to be careful here. If I wanted to marry a certain person, is my alleged “right” to marry being denied if she won’t marry me? Why or why not?
… a Jewish baker ought not to be forced to bake a cake in honor of the Nazis, or, a Muslim restaurant ought not to be forced to serve pork.
These are two different situations. We would expect a baker to have cake on his list of products, but a Muslim restaurant probably wouldn’t have pork, so would have no problem because no one gets served pork, hence no discrimination. The Jewish baker, however, might be in a sticky wicket if he offered to make cakes for associations, clubs, fraternal organizations, etc.
We do not see such examples in the public media for the simple reason that they do not serve the liberal agenda to discriminate against Christians.
Bingo! 👍
 
Ask them to explain what moral standard they are appealing to when making these statements. …
I don’t think “progressives” have a moral standard because they have said that morality is relative, while claiming the moral high ground. If morality is relative, how can there be a moral high ground? 🤷
 
Hi Unstoppable II:

Responding to a couple points you make:

Quote from me:
“The kind of “discrimination” that is rightly to be rejected is that which entails actions against a person simply because they are a person with human rights.”

You write: “I would disagree with this. The kind we should reject is that which is based on something a person cannot control.”

My reply: You cited yourself someone saying that correct discrimination is the reason we don’t have blind bus drivers. Well, that is something one cannot control. My point is that while it may be licit to refuse a specific objectionable service to someone, one should not reject a person simply for being a person whose accidental characteristics are beyond their control, e.g., race. Then, too, if one is too short to ride on a roller coaster, it makes sense not to let them get killed.

Quote from me:
“Since a person’s race is utterly incidental to their human dignity as a person, no one should deny them basic human rights on that basis alone, for example, the right to marry another person of their choice.”

You wrote: “We have to be careful here. If I wanted to marry a certain person, is my alleged “right” to marry being denied if she won’t marry me? Why or why not?”

My response: The right to marry, properly understood, entails the essential characteristics of the natural marriage contract, namely, a contract by which two competent persons of the opposite sex freely and deliberately give to each other the exclusive and irrevocable right over their bodies (ius in corpus) for the procreation and education of children. (source: Heribert Jone’s Moral Theology, 483)

Since the contract presupposes free consent, it is self-evident that the natural right to marriage requires that both parties desire to enter into the contract. She does not have to marry you. Find someone else.
 
…compared to
“How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.”
Elizabeth Barrett Browning, How Do I Love Thee? Sonnet 43

When we love someone, we want them to be happy. We would never think of encouraging them to do something that will eventually cause them harm. We would never want to affirm that immoral acts are to be freely committed.
As Christians, we hold fast to the teachings of our Creator and of natural law that all homosexual acts are morally wrong even when civil authorities approve them. We render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.
Mark 12: 13-17

While we sincerely respect the human dignity of homosexual persons, this does not include praising the homosexual acts which attempt to imitate true marriage blest by God. Genesis 1: 27-28. A simple wedding cake is physically separate from the subjective moral beliefs of the celebrants. In love, we cannot judge another person’s subjectively morality. That final judgment belongs to our Creator. At the same time, we need to recognize that a simple wedding cake can serve as the baker’s public approval of inordinate sexual acts.

Christian bakers, like ourselves, have the duty to uphold Christian moral standards in the public arena. This is what Christ did and bakers and ourselves need to do likewise. When a simple wedding cake proclaims an immoral union, it should not be baked because we truly love our brothers and sisters and therefore we will not encourage and approve evil with a public wedding cake.
 
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