Denying the Sacraments

[Tracy_Spenst]

My question concerns whether or not sacraments can be denied to people. Here’s the problem:

Last spring I taught NFP to 13 couples. Eleven of those 13 were living together and contracepting (both mortal sins, for anyone in doubt). I have taught for about four years and have now resigned for several reasons, but this one is my top. Why are co-habitating couples permitted to marry in the Church?

I’ve asked priests and other folks and the answer I’ve gotten is that priests are not permitted to deny the sacraments to anyone. In fact, the last priest I talked to about this said they were taught that in seminary (he is newly ordained).

It cannot be true that sacraments cannot be denied. Archbishop Burke was the first of many who are now denying Holy Communion to those politicians advocating abortion. I know of a man denied Holy Orders the week before his ordination when family members finally came forward with information that he had problems. Parents are denied the baptism of their child if they have no intention of practicing the Catholic faith. These are a few examples.

One reason I’m told that couples should be allowed to marry in the Church anyway is because otherwise they’ll go to another church or judge to marry. My response is, “Fine. At least they’ll be consistent.”

Another reason I was given was that hopefully the graces of the sacrament will help them see the truth. People in mortal sin don’t receive graces. And if they choose to have a wedding Mass, they also put on an additional mortal sin on their souls by receiving Holy Communion while in a state of mortal sin.

Please don’t misunderstand that I’m just a grump. I Corinthians 11 makes it very clear that those who receive Our Lord in an unworthy manner bring judgment, and eventually death, upon themselves. By allowing these folks to marry in the Church I see two things:

1. Our Lord is dishonored publically since most folks at the wedding know the couple is living together. Co-habitation is a public sin, especially when they don’t bat an eye giving the priest the same address!
2. These people do not take seriously the eternal ramifications of what they’re doing. Why should they? Obviously the Church doesn’t see it as a big deal or they would deny them a Catholic church wedding.

So, can anyone tell me where in Canon Law, the Catechism, writings of the popes, etc. where it says that sacraments cannot be denied?

Thanks,
Tracy

 

[gardenswithkids]

My question concerns whether or not sacraments can be denied to people. Here’s the problem:…
I’ve asked priests and other folks and the answer I’ve gotten is that priests are not permitted to deny the sacraments to anyone. In fact, the last priest I talked to about this said they were taught that in seminary (he is newly ordained).

It cannot be true that sacraments cannot be denied. Archbishop Burke was the first of many who are now denying Holy Communion to those politicians advocating abortion. …
So, can anyone tell me where in Canon Law, the Catechism, writings of the popes, etc. where it says that sacraments cannot be denied?..

I don’t think anyone is going to find any canon law on that specific issue for you. However, maybe in your diocese priests are not permitted to deny the Sacrament of Marriage to co-habitating married couples because of the specific orders from their superiors? Just guessing one possibility…

This is a rather delicate matter and some of the things mentioned to you are valid points. We really don’t want to drive Catholics who sin out of the Church (otherwise we’d all have to leave for one reason or another.) I do know a priest who told me he declines to marry co-habitating couples unless they either move-out or promise not to have sex and to have separate sleeping arrangements during the engagement. BUT he handles that correction with extreme charity. We must always speak the truth IN LOVE. Without that charity, there is a strong risk that couples told they cannot marry in the Church may feel driven away from the Church–and it’s the Church’s business to invite sinners to repentance not to drive them away.

 

[passus]

Hi,

Your concerns of respect for the sacraments and the spiritual state of the couple are so valid. Cohabitation prior to marriage poses a very delicate pastoral problem, though, and it is not one the bishops have overlooked.

Take a look at the following document from the USCCB, called “Marriage Preparation and Cohabiting Couples.”

usccb.org/laity/marriage/cohabiting.shtml

Regarding denying the sacraments, of course the law provides for situations when someone can be denied the sacraments. The priests who told you that nobody can ever be denied sacraments are mistaken. It is true, however, that cohabitation before marriage is not a valid reason to deny the sacrament of marriage, nor is it a canonical impediment to the sacrament except in special cases.

 

[churchsecretary]

Another reason I was given was that hopefully the graces of the sacrament will help them see the truth. People in mortal sin don’t receive graces. And if they choose to have a wedding Mass, they also put on an additional mortal sin on their souls by receiving Holy Communion while in a state of mortal sin.

Tracy,
But you don’t know that they’re in a state of mortal sin. They may go to confession the day before the wedding! In fact I once knew a couple (DH’s niece) who went to confession at 11AM & got married at 2PM. I don’t know if this was a suggestion of the priest or not.

Also, if you deny them, then you would also have to deny couples who want to convalidate their marriages that were contracted outside the church. They would also be in a state of mortal sin, wouldn’t they?

Just something to think about.

 

[Tracy_Spenst]

Thanks for your responses and I will read the document recommended, Passus.

I realize this needs to be handled with a great deal of delicacy because we don’t want to drive people from the Church. However, what I am seeing is a “kiss my behind” attitude among a lot of couples. They don’t give a rip and yet the Church is acting like an indulgent parent who says, “It’s okay, I’m sure someday you’ll understand” when a “No way, not here” would be more effective.

Churchsecretary, I do realize the argument that the person might have gone to confession just prior and all may be okay. However, the likelihood that there was a firm purpose of amendment or true contrition would be highly suspect (which would constitute an invalid confession–another mortal sin–but I leave that completely with the priests!). Cohabitation is a public sin and although it doesn’t need to be publicly repudiated (like abortion-supporting politicians should be), it shouldn’t be a known fact by those present that they are living together. Do you know what I mean? The Bible tells us we’re to give no appearance of evil or cause little ones to stumble, this is a big one for both.

Catholics who have married outside the Church are in a state of mortal sin. That marriage is not recognized by the Church and couples in that situation should live as brother and sister until they are married in the Church. (Of course that only applies to Catholics who married outside the Church–Protestants marrying outside the Church who then become Catholic already have valid marriages as long as they were married by a pastor of some kind and not a judge.)

I know we all sin. We all need confession and the strength of the sacraments to resist and overcome sin in our lives. However, mortal sin costs people their eternities and it shouldn’t be treated as if it weren’t a big deal. Not only are their souls at risk, but so is the integrity of the Church as the guide to morality. And we’re in desperate need of guidance in this time.

Tracy

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Tracy,
But you don’t know that they’re in a state of mortal sin. They may go to confession the day before the wedding! In fact I once knew a couple (DH’s niece) who went to confession at 11AM & got married at 2PM. I don’t know if this was a suggestion of the priest or not.

Also, if you deny them, then you would also have to deny couples who want to convalidate their marriages that were contracted outside the church. They would also be in a state of mortal sin, wouldn’t they?

Just something to think about.

Proper confession must include repentance. I don’t have a definition of repentance at hand, but think it should include regret for the action. One does wonder how one suddenly achieves regret three hours before it is no longer a problem.

 

[maryj]

Tracy, I think your last line in your last post says a lot. We are desperately in need of guidance at this time.
I lost my father when I was young (21) very shortly after that, I moved out of the house to live with my boyfriend. Pregnant within the year, we married in the church about 6 weeks after our daughter was born. I was hugely pregnant when I went in to discuss, with the priest, marriage arrangements. He never once mentioned the pregnancy, which was very obvious, but did ask if we were living togethar. I told him yes,(I could have lied and still to this day am not sure why I didn’t, intervention maybe. He told us to spereate until we were married, or we could have a private service as to not cause scandal.
Well we didn’t listen to that priest, what did he know!
I continued off and on going to Mass. Had our daughter baptized, sent her to Catholic school. My marriage was always in turmoil, there was at one point a time when we thought about divorce.
My mom was getting older and I was taking her to church on the occassional sunday(receiving Holy communion in a state of mortal sin). Our church we had attended was closing do to a consolidation of parishes, now we had to drive to a church across town to attend mass instead of walking. I had to bring my mother since she couldn’t walk there. I can so vividly remember this as though it happened just yesterday. That new priest gave his homily on the need for confession, I had heard that homily a million times blah, blah blah before. It was as if the Holy Spirit literally and physically pushed me back in that pew and said “better listen up here”
It was a long time in that confessional, 25 years to cover, takes some time and contemplation. I will be eternally grateful for that day, He drew me to Himself. I don’t know how, as I was not receiving His body and Blood in a worthy manner and somehow He still found a way to fill me with His Grace. It’s just my story and I have to believe that God can and will call us if we are in the right place and time and He allows us to open us to His calling. Just my thoughts.

edited to add…I now have a wonderful marriage, God has blessed us in too numerous ways to mention.

 

[Langdell]

Thanks for that beautiful reminiscence, Maryi!

When I read questions like those in the OP, I’m glad I’m not a priest.

.

 

[Tracy_Spenst]

Mary,

Your story gives me such hope for the many around me that I see doing what you have done. It breaks my heart to see young couples going that route and not receiving any guidance or rejecting what is offered. You just know that the school of hard knocks is now their only option.

What a joy it must have been to your mother to see you in that confessional line–I could cry just thinking about it!

Thank you for sharing your story–I pray it will be repeated by many, many more couples.

In His Grace,
Tracy :heaven:

 

[maryj]

Mary,

Your story gives me such hope for the many around me that I see doing what you have done. It breaks my heart to see young couples going that route and not receiving any guidance or rejecting what is offered. You just know that the school of hard knocks is now their only option.

What a joy it must have been to your mother to see you in that confessional line–I could cry just thinking about it!

Thank you for sharing your story–I pray it will be repeated by many, many more couples.

In His Grace,
Tracy :heaven:

I believe it was her constant and prayerful praying of the Holy Rosary that brought that re-birth about. But you are absolutely, one hundred percent correct when you state it is a road of hard knocks as our option when we do what “we want” as opposed to what “He wants”, of this I am sure.
God Bless, and I’ll keep praying too.

 

[Michael1985]

Tracy
Can I reccomend that you read this chapter (it’s short) on hasty judgements. It’s from An Introduction to the Devoute Life.

It’s really important we don’t assume anything about the state people are living in.

ccel.org/ccel/desales/devout_life.v.xxviii.html

 

[Bluegoat]

A Catholic friend of mine recently married. She was co-habitating prior to the wedding. The priest insisted that they refrain from sexual relations until the wedding, which they did - they had separate rooms and for a while my friend stayed with relatives.

He also strongly advised them to go to confession before the wedding, and gave them a rather stern lecture about marriage.

Now, my friend is a fairly serious Catholic, but not particularly an intellectual. Like many people, she married at an older age than people used to - almost 30. Her fiance had been married before (it was annulled.)

None of these things are excuses. I think though, she felt rather torn about the whole thing. On the one hand, she takes marriage quite seriously. On the other, she didn’t really feel that there was a problem - they wee committed, etc. She told me specifically she felt odd about confessing something she didn’t feel wrong about - it was, in the end, an exercise in obedience for her.

Now all this is only relevant because I think it speaks to what many Catholic couples feel about the whole thing, and the situations they find themselves in. I’m not sure denying them a Church wedding would be useful. But I don’t know a better answer. I think though, it might be useful to think about why so many couples, even ones that feel a commitment to Catholicism and know the “rules” find themselves in this position. Perhaps there is something that might alleviate the causes.

There are many people though who get married in the Church with no real commitment or belief at all - often it seems to be for family reasons. I think that should probably not be allowed, though I am sympathetic to the pressure some families put on their children about this.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The religious education in the last 30 - 40 years leaves a lot to be desired. I had one EMHC for the homebound whotold me that she wasn’t married in the Church. No one in her family was married in the Church. She says no one ever told them that it was necessary.

Also she had never been Confirmed. She had attended the classes, but was busy the day of the ceremony; so had skipped it. No one told her it was essential.

Being familiar with the parish she grew up in, I believe her. She was very sincere, and an excellent minister to the sick, but quite lacking in knowledge of her faith. I got them together with the pastor who convalidated their marriage and put her through my adult Confirmation class.

 

[churchsecretary]

Proper confession must include repentance. I don’t have a definition of repentance at hand, but think it should include regret for the action. One does wonder how one suddenly achieves regret three hours before it is no longer a problem.

Confession should ALWAYS include regret for the action…my goodness, I teach that to my 2nd grade CCD students:

5 Steps to Receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation Worthily (borrowed from the Baltimore Catechism):

1. Find out my sins (examination of conscience)
2. Be sorry for my sins (contrition)
3. Make up my mind not to sin again (resolution)
4. Tell my sins to the priest (confession)
5. Say the prayers or do the actions the priest gives me (penance)

However, I think the Church in her wisdom realizes that we as human beings can’t read another human’s mind. We don’t know what regret another might have. And since we don’t, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they don’t have repentance, then it is their sin for an improper confession.

This whole thread reminds me of something I read just the other day–I believe it was the Archbishop of New York, who said something about the vocation crisis. He said that the biggest problem vocation in today’s world was MARRIAGE, with the high divorce rate and the problems involved. He said that if the marriage vocation problems were solved, there would be no vocations crisis as far as a need for priests and religious.

 

[Tracy_Spenst]

Tracy
Can I reccomend that you read this chapter (it’s short) on hasty judgements. It’s from An Introduction to the Devoute Life.

It’s really important we don’t assume anything about the state people are living in.

ccel.org/ccel/desales/devout_life.v.xxviii.html

Michael,

I will read this later as it’s longer than I have time to read at the moment. But I think we have to also be aware that we are required to make some judgments about people.

Matthew 7:15-20 tells us to beware of false prophets and that we will be able to tell who they are by their fruits. In other words, we make a judgment about another person. When couples are living together, that’s a fruit we can see. When they roll their eyes at you while you’re teaching what the Church teaches, that’s another fruit we see. When you attend their weddings and see it’s an opportunity for show or just to make Mom happy, that’s another fruit that we can see.

Jesus said we’re to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. After four years of teaching these couples (I live in a diocese where a full course of NFP is required for all couples preparing for marriage), it’s pretty obvious. And I’ve talked with enough priests who are frustrated with it to know this isn’t just my issue. There are also other instructors who’ve quit teaching for the same reason.

In I Cor. 11 St. Paul says there are those who were sick and dying because they received Communion in an unworthy manner. I think people need to be clearly told that this can happen. This is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ here, not bread and wine. Marriage is a sacrament; not a ceremony to be held in a pretty environment. It’s time that be made clear to couples seeking to marry in the Church.

Gotta go-time to wash kids!
Tracy

 

[tjm190]

You lost me when you said cohabitation was in and of itself a mortal sin. Obviously if they’re using contraception, they’re having sex, and those two are big no-no’s in the Church. But living together?

 

[Tracy_Spenst]

When the term “cohabitation” is used, it infers the couple is living together and having sex. Rare indeed would be a dating couple who would live together and not eventually engage in sex! Even if they did not, we are not to give the appearance of evil and cohabitation certainly does just that.

Tracy

 

[Victorious]

Tracy
Can I reccomend that you read this chapter (it’s short) on hasty judgements. It’s from An Introduction to the Devoute Life.

It’s really important we don’t assume anything about the state people are living in.

ccel.org/ccel/desales/devout_life.v.xxviii.html

We can – and are bound to – judge actions. There are things that are objectively wrong. Individual guilt may be mitigated by ignorance (provided the ignorance is not blameworthy), but the actions are still objectively wrong and need to be called out as such.

Tracy,
But you don’t know that they’re in a state of mortal sin. They may go to confession the day before the wedding! In fact I once knew a couple (DH’s niece) who went to confession at 11AM & got married at 2PM. I don’t know if this was a suggestion of the priest or not.

No, we can’t judge the state of people’s souls. But to shack up, and then go to confession three hours before the wedding, (a) sets a really bad example (God is not mocked), and (b) provides ammunition to those non-Catholics who think confession is nothing more than a get-out-of-hell-free card. Others have already pointed out that this scenario doesn’t exactly smack of purpose of amendment.

Now all this is only relevant because I think it speaks to what many Catholic couples feel about the whole thing, and the situations they find themselves in. I’m not sure denying them [cohabiting couples] a Church wedding would be useful.

Well, it is useful. Preventing the profanation of a Sacrament is always useful. Registering the Church’s disapproval of concubinage (a word I’d like to see return to general usage) is useful. If people set so much store by having a Church wedding, then go ahead and deprive them of it if they are behaving badly: maybe that’s the incentive they need to cut it out. Depriving bad behavior of its consequences is useful only if you want to see more of the bad behavior.

Matthew 7:15-20 tells us to beware of false prophets and that we will be able to tell who they are by their fruits. In other words, we make a judgment about another person. When couples are living together, that’s a fruit we can see. When they roll their eyes at you while you’re teaching what the Church teaches, that’s another fruit we see. When you attend their weddings and see it’s an opportunity for show or just to make Mom happy, that’s another fruit that we can see.

Well, we’re making judgments about that person’s behavior. What we can’t do is judge the state of someone’s soul since, as stated above, we can’t know what mitigating factors might apply.

But once again, some acts are objectively evil and need to be dealt with as such. Concubinage is a plague and a scourge. It’s an offense against God, an offense against the institution of matrimony, and an offense against the children of such unions, whose lives are a house of cards. We need to quit treating it as if it were no big deal.

 

[Victorious]

You lost me when you said cohabitation was in and of itself a mortal sin. Obviously if they’re using contraception, they’re having sex, and those two are big no-no’s in the Church. But living together?

We do have a duty to avoid giving scandal. What conclusion is naturally going to be drawn about two straight, unrelated and unmarried people of the opposite sex living together? That’s one of the reasons why it used to be common sense that such people did not live together (another reason being that it’s not the best way to avoid the occasion of sin).

 

[tjm190]

When the term “cohabitation” is used, it infers the couple is living together and having sex. Rare indeed would be a dating couple who would live together and not eventually engage in sex! Even if they did not, we are not to give the appearance of evil and cohabitation certainly does just that.

Tracy

“co”- together
“habitation”- living
The word sex does not come into play

Just because people are going to be judgmental and assume sex is taking place does not make it sinful.