Denying the virgin birth? What's next, denying the resurrection?

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=marywarfield;11973130]There we go again bogged down in SS, and Lutherans
representing the Protestant view when we all know it doesn’t actually.
Hi Mary.
First, I was just responding to Syro’s comment about SS, so don’t blame me. 😃
Second, I was very clear in distinguishing that my comment was from the Lutheran view.
And again if Jon you want to say Tradition must be subordinate to Scripture you have to ask how that works when Scripture was subordinate to oral Tradition.
Please help me understand this, since I have come to the understanding that scripture, Tradition were co-equal.

thanks,
Jon
 
Of course, the Nicene council used language for the Trinity that the first century apostles would have been unaware or unfamiliar of. However, every dogma stated at that council can be explicitly demonstrated by Scripture.
Sorry,but that is incorrect. I can provide words not explicitly stated in Scripture used for the Trinity.
 
Sorry,but that is incorrect. I can provide words not explicitly stated in Scripture used for the Trinity.
And I can demonstrate, from Scripture, exactly what they based the words they used on. Of course, we don’t expect words like homoousios to appear exactly in Scripture. But the concept, yes.
 
I respect you, Syro. This is too goofy to respond to, though. Really? The Scriptures are equivalent to Harry Potter? The lengths you guys will go to in order to defend your church is truly bizarre. Case study 1456 of why I would never be Catholic.
You will never join the Church because of your internet relationships with Catholics you don’t agree with? Do you realize how selfish that sounds. You cannot take out your frustration with man on God and the Church. You end up creating your own God and dividing the body of Christ, just like Luther. Your God would do such and such, your God would write such and such, your God would never such and such. It is clever form of idolatry to create our own version of God. We end up worshiping ourselves through a disguise that we are worshiping the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Jesus Christ has come and set up the Church, part of the Kingdom of God, and there is no room for alterations. Jesus is The Word, not a translatable word for each of us to determine, but pure truth itself. If we cannot trust the Church our ancestors trusted, we have no right to even open up a Bible that we received from them. How much wiser it would be to investigate the problems we have with the Church’s teachings and try to bring our weak minds into harmony with our glorious ancestor saints. Will it take true humility? Yes, but we need it.
 
And I can demonstrate, from Scripture, exactly what they based the words they used on. Of course, we don’t expect words like homoousios to appear exactly in Scripture. But the concept, yes.
Which is why it was implicit,not explicit.
 
If faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of Christ, then it does mean that faith was given to me…which means you just said the exact same thing I did 😛

Ah, okay. Then I mistook what you meant by what you said.

There are probably millions of people who came to faith in Christ in just that exact way, Mary.
And millions more who don’t Per Crucem. Are you
going to go all Calvinist on me now at this late
date and tell me these Muslims and Jews were
created for damnation?
 
And millions more who don’t Per Crucem. Are you
going to go all Calvinist on me now at this late
date and tell me these Muslims and Jews were
created for damnation?
No, but what has that got to do with being able to actually prove doctrine from history?
 
No, but what has that got to do with being able to actually prove doctrine from history?
Nothing. But you haven’t yet given an explanation as
to why a Doctrine held in common for centuries needs or
should be proven from history? What for?
 
Nothing. But you haven’t yet given an explanation as
to why a Doctrine held in common for centuries needs or
should be proven from history? What for?
Well, you do hope people come to believe it, yeah?
 
You will never join the Church because of your internet relationships with Catholics you don’t agree with?
If only it were just the internet.

Be that as it may, I like most of the Catholics here. Even Mary. And she drinks Starbucks.
Do you realize how selfish that sounds.
Do you realize how much I don’t care 😛
You cannot take out your frustration with man on God and the Church.
Ooooooo I hates that papal rabbit.
You end up creating your own God and dividing the body of Christ, just like Luther.
Jah!
Your God would do such and such, your God would write such and such, your God would never such and such. It is clever form of idolatry to create our own version of God.
Oh do go on.
We end up worshiping ourselves through a disguise that we are worshiping the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Jesus Christ has come and set up the Church, part of the Kingdom of God, and there is no room for alterations. Jesus is The Word, not a translatable word for each of us to determine, but pure truth itself. If we cannot trust the Church our ancestors trusted, we have no right to even open up a Bible that we received from them. How much wiser it would be to investigate the problems we have with the Church’s teachings and try to bring our weak minds into harmony with our glorious ancestor saints. Will it take true humility? Yes, but we need it.
I know someone who needs a cookie!
 
Well, you do hope people come to believe it, yeah?
That would be nice but it’s not to me Doc just not
up to me.

And as a matter of fact I believe in the IC and
didn’t know any history on it as I never bothered to
look it up.
The Church just said IC and I said yes cause it was
the Church talking.
 
If only it were just the internet.

Be that as it may, I like most of the Catholics here. Even Mary. And she drinks Starbucks.

Do you realize how much I don’t care 😛

Ooooooo I hates that papal rabbit.

Jah!

Oh do go on.

I know someone who needs a cookie!
Add mocking a concerned brother to the list of reasons for what was written. I’m sure your WWJD bracelet doesn’t approve of your actions. That Bible you read speaks very dangerously about insulting and mocking brothers in Christ.
 
Add mocking a concerned brother to the list of reasons for what was written. I’m sure your WWJD bracelet doesn’t approve of your actions. That Bible you read speaks very dangerously about insulting and mocking brothers in Christ.
Sense of humor, my good man. Oh, wait, you weren’t joking when you said I was a selfish arrogant idolater who created his own God just like Luther did and that I was dividing the Body of Christ?

Oh, silly me. How could I have thought otherwise.
 
Sense of humor, my good man. Oh, wait, you weren’t joking when you said I was an arrogant idolater who created his own God just like Luther did and that I was dividing the Body of Christ?

Oh, silly me. How could I have thought otherwise.
There was no joke for me writing what I did. I don’t really mean to call you arrogant, idolater, dividing the body of Christ anymore than all of us. I’m just trying to make a point that we could draw closer if we recognize the divisions we perpetuate, knowingly or unknowingly. I know that writing in the way I did is just as arrogant, but how will we unite if one of us doesn’t fold. I was just trying to bring trust in older generations into the equation.

I did sense your sense of humor, but it still is coated with hate.
 
=7WatersDaughter;11965584]Hello everyone. If you’ve read my posts you know that I am a lapsed Catholic who has been attending the Presbyterian church for the past few years. I’ve been feeling called back to Catholicism and am going about this slowly and studiously, listening to God’s call to my heart.
I was at my Presbyterian church the other day and I borrowed a book from the library called Presbyterian Questions, Presbyterian Answers – it’s basically a theology book, not very long. I figured since I plan to study up on Catholicism I can see what Reformed theology is all about too (even though I know what it is all about and cannot reconcile myself to Calvinism, but I am an analytical person by nature and wanted to give Catholic and Protestant views both a “fair” study).
The book is made up of several different groupings of theology thought, with questions and answers. In it, the author says that some Reformed Christians believe that Jesus was born of a virgin with no earthly biological father, while some don’t – and that it doesn’t/shouldn’t MATTER.
I was so shocked. To me, the virgin birth is a BIG part of Christianity. If you start to deny it, what’s next, denying that Jesus rose from the dead? And if you do that, what’s the point of being a Christian?
My friend, welcome to CAF!

There is a book, written by the founder of CAF called “Catholicism and Fundalmentalism” by Karl Keeting that you ought to be able to GOOGLE and find. It’s been out awhile, but itsa GREAT read.

It explains well and objectively the difference in Catholicism and Fundalmetal beliefs.

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
There are quite a few people who don’t think scripture is clear on this issue, mainly because of that whole translation issue.
(the Hebrew word, “almah” vs. the Greek word “parthenos” vs. the Greek word “bethulah”, etc, etc.)

(long and detailed explanation here on some of the arguments: [infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/virg(name removed by moderator)rophecy.html](http://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/virg(name removed by moderator)rophecy.html))

.
You are thinking Old Testament. The NT has none of those translation issues when it comes to Mary being a virgin.
 
Wait a minute, what gives you this idea? Because I ask for evidence for something from an apostolic source, it negates tradition? So in other words, anything that anyone claims is apostolic tradition is automatically right, without any evidence that it comes from an apostle? Then why in the world did we condemn the Gnostics??
No, not anything that anyone claimed was Apostolic Tradition was automatically right, precisely because, if it was not right, there would not be any evidence that it came from an Apostle. What I mean by that is this: the Apostles taught the faith to many people throughout the Mediterranian. The faith that they taught those people was all the same. Therefore, when the Apostles died, they left behind a large group of people who had all been taught the same thing, and a few of them had been appointed directly by the Apostles as their successors (e.g. Timothy, Titus, Linus, Ignatius of Antioch, etc.). This group of people was “the Church.” As such, if someone (or a group of people) introduced a new teaching, claiming it was of Apostolic origin (and sometimes with accompanying writings such as in the case of the gnostic gospels), the Church rejected it for the very reason that it was not something that had been believed and taught by the Church as a whole from the time of the Apostles. This is why the gostics were condemned, because they tried to introduce new teachings that had never been taught before, even attributing some of their gospels to Apostles (such as the Gospel of Philip).

On the other hand, for the same reason, this is why the IC (since you used it as an example) was accepted. It was a belief held in common by the Church from the beginning, and we have the historical writings to prove it. Just because none of those writings were ultimately chosen to be included in the canon of scripture does not mean that the belief was false and not of Apostolic origin. As explained by Jimmy Akin in his book The Fathers Know Best (Introduction to chapter 49):
The Fathers of the Church taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ. These included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven. These gifts were given to her by God’s grace. She did not earn them, but she possessed them nonetheless.
The key to understanding these graces is Mary’s role as the New Eve, on which the Fathers were quite clear. Because she is the New Eve, she–like the New Adam–was born immaculate, just as the first Adam and Eve were created immaculate. As the New Eve, she is mother of the New Humanity (Christians), just as the first Eve was the mother of humanity. And, as the New Eve, she shares the fate of the New Adam. Whereas the first Adam and Eve died and went to dust, the New Adam and Eve were lifted up bodily to heaven.
Even before the terms “original sin” and “immaculate conception” had been developed, early passages imply the concepts. Many works mention that Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain. Pain in childbearing is part of the penalty of original sin (Gn 3:16), thus, Mary could not have been under that penalty. By God’s grace she was made immaculate in anticipation of her Son’s redemptive death on the cross. The Church therefore describes Mary as “the most excellent fruit of redemption” (CCC 508).
I have to go right now, but later I can provide you with some of the quotes from these works (which begin as early as 90 A.D.) that either explicitly or implicitly speak of Mary’s sinless nature.

The point though is that this belief was accepted by the Church because it was in line with what the entire group of people had been taught by the Apostles.
 
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