Depersonalization and Dark Night of the Soul?

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Anyone here who suffers or has suffered from Depersonalization and is the loss of sense of the world and self similar to one enduring a Dark Night of the Soul?
 
Yes, almost every night for a few hours. At one time it would last up to a week or weeks. Its not fun. My experience is more of a derealization, then depersonalization. I can’t say if it is mental or a dark night type experience. Tim
 
Hi Iam very interestedin your topic can you share with me though this part, I don’t really underestand it…
suffered from Depersonalization and is the loss of sense of the world and self similar to one enduring a Dark Night of the Soul
Thanks
Godbless
littleone
 
littleone said:
Hi Iam very interestedin your topic can you share with me though this part, I don’t really underestand it…
suffered from Depersonalization and is the loss of sense of the world and self similar to one enduring a Dark Night of the Soul
Thanks
Godbless
littleone
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Hi Littleone,
I think, although I am not sure because it isn’t written clearly for me, that they are referring to a period of time where they feel removed from the world and from their sense of self, probably during prayer, as is described via the dark night of the soul.

I’ve the book “Dark Night of the Soul” recently and it is very interesting. There are actually various phases that one goes through on their spiritual journey as they become closer to God.

When your journey toward God begins God gives you much reward during your prayer. You’ll find omfort in prayer and you find that you can FEEL God’s presense when you pray. You will gain a sense of relief and comfort through prayer in the begining. That will drive you to pray more and more. Eventually you’ll find comfort on all levels and a sense of oneness with God.

However, at some point, all of a sudden for no reason you can discern you find that your prayers no longer bring you comfort and in fact you find it hard to pray. You no longer sense God with you and all goes “dark.” You continue to pray and find no relief or comfort in it. This would be the first phase of the dark night of the soul.

Depending on the strength of your soul God will put you through a long period of dark night or short bursts with rewards or incentives inbetween to help the weaker souls which could be feeling his presence again or whatever he deams worthy for that particular soul.

As you progress on your journey toward God he will allow you to be tempted and tormented during this dark night. The truth is that you are in fact moving closer to him than you were in the begining but he requires that you have strong faith. You must have faith even without the feelings. Your torment will become your lack of feeling his presense even though he is actually walking with you and holding your hand. This torment or suffering cleanses your soul so that you can move even closer to him.

At some point when you have suffered adequately you will be granted supernatural graces because of the Dark Night. Very few souls make it this far. Padre Pio is an example of one who did.

What the OP is saying about “depersonalization” I am not sure. I will have to wiat for them to explain but as I understand it this is not part of the dark night I am reading about. But, it could be, part of thsi persons torment. I am not God, I can not say.
 
Thank You for your posts and comments. I should have made this more clear. There are actually two questions here.
  1. Anyone suffering from Depersonalization and/or Derealization?
  2. Are the feelings one feels with these conditions similiar to those that one feels when they undergoing what is called the “Dark Night of the Soul”?
Depersonalization/Derealization is a disorder where one feels separated from his enviroment and self. I am not that familiar with the “Dark Night of the Soul” any suggerstions for learning more?

Thanks- Rob
 
nearflip said:
Thank You for your posts and comments. I should have made this more clear. There are actually two questions here.
  1. Anyone suffering from Depersonalization and/or Derealization?
  2. Are the feelings one feels with these conditions similiar to those that one feels when they undergoing what is called the “Dark Night of the Soul”?
Depersonalization/Derealization is a disorder where one feels separated from his enviroment and self. I am not that familiar with the “Dark Night of the Soul” any suggerstions for learning more?

Thanks- Rob
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Some information on the dark night of the soul can be found at the following website: 65.19.168.120/thefaith/catholicclassics/johnofthecross/dark_night/darknight1.cfm

The Dark Night of the Soul is a fascinating subject although mysterious. I suggest reading.

As for experiancing what you are talking about the 'depersonalization / derealization " I’ve only experianced that one time while I was in the hospital on tons of meds and not doing so well. I think it might have been the drugs. Are you on any meds or have you actually been diagnosed with this disorder you are talking about?
 
nearflip said:
Anyone here who suffers or has suffered from Depersonalization and is the loss of sense of the world and self similar to one enduring a Dark Night of the Soul?
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you mean by depersonalization. If that describes a psychological condition or disorder then no, it is not the same thing experienced in the Dark Night of the Soul. I
 
nearflip said:
Thank You for your posts and comments. I should have made this more clear. There are actually two questions here.
  1. Anyone suffering from Depersonalization and/or Derealization?
  2. Are the feelings one feels with these conditions similiar to those that one feels when they undergoing what is called the “Dark Night of the Soul”?
Depersonalization/Derealization is a disorder where one feels separated from his enviroment and self. I am not that familiar with the “Dark Night of the Soul” any suggerstions for learning more?

Thanks- Rob
Click to expand...
I’m in the middle of discerning what my situation every night is exactly.Yesterday I met with a spiritual director and only touched on the subject. The Priest onbly said, “we always have an angel with us”. Knew that.🤷 Today I met with a psychiatrist and we ruled out this experience from a physiological source from medications or side effects. Within a couple of weeks from now , I will meet with my regular psychologist to discuss this experience as a possible symptom of the ptsd I’ve been diagnosed with. So I can’t exactly say what this experience is right now. It is a darkness that overcomes and the sense of what is real and what is not gets blurred. You only know it is you and God for sure, but He is silent. You feel very small in His hands as a result and the world no longer is of any concern, but you are in a fear and awe at the enormity of God in what is now a different perspective of this world. It is so surreal, you feel as though you have died and are in purgatory or some other staging area. Everything read, said, or brought to your attention could be from the Lord. You wait for the truth. That is the best I can describe it. Maybe I’m nuts, but it makes it no less real to me. I can’t comment on the dark night of the soul as I can’t understand it for what it is or have studied about it. Tim
 
sorry I got interrupted
just wanted to point out there are some good ongoing threads on John of the Cross and the Dark Night on this forum for those who wish more info

also, to point out, in the counsels of Juan de la Cruz (available from ICS Institute of Carmelite Studis) he speaks extensively about spirituality of those whom he labels as melancholic disposition, we might say prone to clinical depression. He has specific spiritual advice for them which is to this day still very helpful. The most important is (and Ignatius makes this same point) to never, ever make major decisions and life changes, or spiritual changes, vocation changes, devotional changes promises or vows, while in this condition.
 
puzzleannie said:
sorry I got interrupted
just wanted to point out there are some good ongoing threads on John of the Cross and the Dark Night on this forum for those who wish more info

also, to point out, in the counsels of Juan de la Cruz (available from ICS Institute of Carmelite Studis) he speaks extensively about spirituality of those whom he labels as melancholic disposition, we might say prone to clinical depression. He has specific spiritual advice for them which is to this day still very helpful. The most important is (and Ignatius makes this same point) to never, ever make major decisions and life changes, or spiritual changes, vocation changes, devotional changes promises or vows, while in this condition.
Click to expand...
Can you post a link to this thing with Juan on clinical depression?
 
Coreopisis said:
Can you post a link to this thing with Juan on clinical depression?
Click to expand...
it’s not on-line that I know of but the books is available from ICS Institute for Carmelite studies. their contact info, and links posted by another poster, are on the thread I spoke of earlier
 
I copied this from another thread. It’s from Fr. Dubay’s book, “Fire Within.” He touches on the subject of how mental/emotional disorders are often mis-diagnosed as a dark night. For each bulleted point, the first comment is about mental/emotional disorders . . . the second is about the dark night.
Fire Within:
  1. Excessive introspection, self-concern, self-analysis. The person can scarcely get his mind off himself and his problem. Advice does little to remedy this trait, at least at first.
Dark Night - Little or no introspection once the condition is adequately explained. Little awareness of the problem aside from prayer time.
  1. Unrealism. The depressed person’s situation is not as dismal and hopeless as he considers it (when the problem is depression). The moral case is not as the scrupulous person thinks, nor one’s worth as the person with a weak self-image supposes.
Dark Night - The pains of the dark night are objectively well founded: we are very imperfect, and we need exactly what is happening. The situation is a realistic as a laundry washing machine operation and what it is doing for the soiled clothes.
  1. Depression. The person with a mental problem often suffers from clinical depression more or or less severe.
Dark Night - There is no depression at all. At work, play, meals, the person is as cheerful as at any other period in the spiritual life.
  1. Many mental problems are difficult to heal; years of therapy may be needed, and even then progress may be only partial.
Dark Night - A competent explanation clears up the anxiety occasioned by the first night (night of sense). Therapy is not needed in either night, even if the second (night of spirit) must run its course – just as a washing machine must complete its cycles.
  1. Chronic fatique and/or insomnia often accompany the emotional disturbance.
Dark Night - No Problem at all.
  1. Fixing of attention on studying, reading or a lecture can be impossible.
Dark Night - Attention at prayer can be difficult and at times impossible, but there is no attention problem in the rest of life.
  1. Mental/emotional problems do not of themselves promote virtue or increase depth of relationship with God.
Dark Night - The two nights do of themselves greatly increase love, humility, patience and the like, and they decidedly prepare one for deeper prayer.
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Fr. Dubay concludes by saying: “It can happen that a person with some emotional problem may at the same time be going through contemplative purification, and it may be difficult in a given case to sort one out from the other. But all the same, the two phenomena are very different and distinct both in their causes and in their effects.”

Hope this helps . . .
Dave.
 
. . . I should probably add, for those not familiar, Fr. Dubay’s “Fire Within” is based entirely on the teachings of Sts. Teresa and John.

Also, here’s the link to ICS Publications:

www.icspublications.com

Dave.
 
Dave, that passage from Fire Within is what I was getting at with this question. Apparently, mental/emotion problems although similar are distinct from those of a “Dark Night”.
Thanks- Rob
 
DBT said:
I copied this from another thread. It’s from Fr. Dubay’s book, “Fire Within.” He touches on the subject of how mental/emotional disorders are often mis-diagnosed as a dark night. For each bulleted point, the first comment is about mental/emotional disorders . . . the second is about the dark night.

Fr. Dubay concludes by saying: “It can happen that a person with some emotional problem may at the same time be going through contemplative purification, and it may be difficult in a given case to sort one out from the other. But all the same, the two phenomena are very different and distinct both in their causes and in their effects.”

Hope this helps . . .
Dave.
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Very informative. I’m down the middle on the list, some yes and some no’s in either direction. I’ve had a SD confirm two experience’s that happened at the same time to me. One is called an “illumination of conscience” or “the warning” and the other is a “the consolation”. This was a deeply powerful experience with the Lord that turned my life around, as well as affected my wife and family. Very fruitful and positive result’s, resulting in my first confession as an adult, confirmation, marriage being bless by the Church, family practicing the faith and my doubt in the existence of God being erased. I can not begin to write how much I have changed, but I still struggle with the past and the scars of spiritual conflict that followed this experience. For me now, there is nothing the Lord doesn’t have His hand in, even my own struggle’s. It is like training to me. I kind of look forward to it in a way, but don’t feel so hot when it happens. Like the Lord is trying to teach me to operate in the face of adversity, to be able to pray when humbled, to offer it up when it is all I have, I’m not sure what else. If it where to stop, I think I would miss it and wonder why the Lord doesn’t visit for the lessons of the cross. I’m actually thankful for these nightly feelings whatever they may be. Yes, I have a strong sense there is a lesson in this. That is why I’m trying to discern, to learn what it is. Watch it turn out the Lord has been trying to get me to floss more or something. 😊 You all will get to have a laugh at me on judgement day. It would be nice to have it mean something rather then be an emotional problem though, I admit. Tim
 
nearflip said:
Dave, that passage from Fire Within is what I was getting at with this question. Apparently, mental/emotion problems although similar are distinct from those of a “Dark Night”.
Thanks- Rob
Click to expand...
Yes, on the surface the two can appear the same. But, as Fr. Dubay says, cause and effect are very different.

Back to your original post: the feeling of seperation from the world IS a characteristic of the night of sense and the profound experience of loss of self IS a characteristic (perhaps the defining one) of the night of spirit. The Dark Night, though, differs from emotional/mental disorders in that it is purely spiritual and not physical.

Dave
 
This is the problem I have with discerning these things for the past 15 or so years—having emotional and mental problems, it makes it very difficult for me to distinguish these things—coupled with the fact that I have had a hard time finding spiritual direction for these matters.

I read the works (I have Fr. Dubay’s Fire Within) , and do what I can to pray and so forth, but deciding what is happening within me where “dark nights” are concerned is fruitless. Honestly, people, it really has been a sad experience for me. Does a person like me just decide it is for other more stable people? 😦 😦 😦 I am very sad about this–so someone please help me. There is a part of me that says, just forget it because you will never know, and I am thinking too much of myself anway

and I am hoping to someday being a part of the Lay Carmelites in San Antonio, if they call me in August, and like my interview----I also hope to be in formation someday, if God Wills. Pray for me----I will pray for you
 
TOP said:
Very informative. I’m down the middle on the list, some yes and some no’s in either direction. I’ve had a SD confirm two experience’s that happened at the same time to me. One is called an “illumination of conscience” or “the warning” and the other is a “the consolation”. This was a deeply powerful experience with the Lord that turned my life around, as well as affected my wife and family. Very fruitful and positive result’s, resulting in my first confession as an adult, confirmation, marriage being bless by the Church, family practicing the faith and my doubt in the existence of God being erased. I can not begin to write how much I have changed, but I still struggle with the past and the scars of spiritual conflict that followed this experience. For me now, there is nothing the Lord doesn’t have His hand in, even my own struggle’s. It is like training to me. I kind of look forward to it in a way, but don’t feel so hot when it happens. Like the Lord is trying to teach me to operate in the face of adversity, to be able to pray when humbled, to offer it up when it is all I have, I’m not sure what else. If it where to stop, I think I would miss it and wonder why the Lord doesn’t visit for the lessons of the cross. I’m actually thankful for these nightly feelings whatever they may be. Yes, I have a strong sense there is a lesson in this. That is why I’m trying to discern, to learn what it is. Watch it turn out the Lord has been trying to get me to floss more or something. 😊 You all will get to have a laugh at me on judgement day. It would be nice to have it mean something rather then be an emotional problem though, I admit. Tim
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Well, Tim, it sure sounds like you’ve been going through quite a bit of spiritual transformation from what you say here so I’m sure “it means something” 🙂

The night of sense is something many, many people go through and it is sometimes called our “second conversion.” Maybe you can ask your SD about it. If he’s talking to you about “illumination” and “consolation” it might already be on his mind.

My best to you . . .
Dave.
 
DBT said:
Well, Tim, it sure sounds like you’ve been going through quite a bit of spiritual transformation from what you say here so I’m sure “it means something” 🙂

The night of sense is something many, many people go through and it is sometimes called our “second conversion.” Maybe you can ask your SD about it. If he’s talking to you about “illumination” and “consolation” it might already be on his mind.

My best to you . . .
Dave.
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Thanks for the lead. Does this “night of sense” go on for awhile, come and go, or is it a one time thing? Tim
 
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