Deposition of the pope

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pnewton said:
Absolutely not. The current situation is a good example why not. Too many people are easily manipulated by the media and those with a political agenda. Pope Francis has made enemies by fighting against clerical power that was abused.
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Examples? I’d like to believe this, but everything I can think of about Francis is suddenly being colored by this mess. Remind me of the good things he’s done, please!
 
yeah, I agree, give the world an inch and
they would take a mile, and I mean literally!!
But, even the Law is spiritual, so the Teachings
of the Church SHOULD be done in the Spirit
of Love, a merciful Church is better than an
immovable Law-giver!!
 
I’m sorry I’m not sure of what you are trying to say? Grammatically.
 
I’m asking for examples of media sources who have done what you say. Can you give any?
 
As an Archbishop, he took public transportation. He now drives an '84 Renault, an old Fiat, or a Ford Focus from the Vatican motor pool. He appeared upon becoming Pope in white, without the papal regalia. For his first papal blessing, he first asked the people of Rome to bless him and pray for him. He has held major Masses at prisons. He had one bishop resign for excessive opulence.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/francis-removes-german-bling-bishop
Pope Francis on Tuesday effectively fired a German bishop who had attracted controversy for extraordinary expenses on a new diocesan center, sending a signal that he is willing to oust bishops who do not align with his vision of a “poor church for the poor.”
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As head of state, he is over the Vatican police. The one sex scandal they had there, they arrested and sentenced for having child pornography. Pope Francis was described as “enraged.” The idea that Pope Francis can be lackadaisical about someone who hurts children does not fit his character. Likewise, the idea that he is all about power and control for the leaders of the Church is not consistent with what he has actually done. It is a narrative that does not fit the man. The opposite is more likely, that his moves against power and riches among church leaders has engendered enemies.

Show me a cleric who is not supportive of the Pope, and I will show you a cleric that likes his expensive vestments and other trappings of his office.
 
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pnewton said:
Show me a cleric who is not supportive of the Pope, and I will show you a cleric that likes his expensive vestments and other trappings of his office.
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Father Steve Mattson. No one could possibly accuse him of opulence, I assure you.
 
pnewton said:
As head of state, he is over the Vatican police. The one sex scandal they had there, they arrested and sentenced for having child pornography. Pope Francis was described as “enraged.” The idea that Pope Francis can be lackadaisical about someone who hurts children does not fit his character. Likewise, the idea that he is all about power and control for the leaders of the Church is not consistent with what he has actually done. It is a narrative that does not fit the man. The opposite is more likely, that his moves against power and riches among church leaders has engendered enemies.
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This focus on wealth seems to me aways off the mark. If anything, what’s motivating opposition to Francis is either (a) the objective evidence of his wrongdoing, which is not inconsiderable, or (b) a deep and abiding conservatism about doctrine and pastoral care that finds Francis’s approach odious. Politics, not economics.

And the notion that Francis is really consistently opposed to wealth strikes me as questionable. McCarrick was clearly someone he relied on, and McCarrick was about as opulent and clerical as it gets. I’m having trouble not just seeing Francis as a person who promoted “his people” and forgave them, but demoted those who stood against him and didn’t offer them forgiveness. The clerics who got second chances seemed to often be those who shared Francis’s pastoral approach.

I really am open to being convinced, and I’m glad you reminded me of him chastising that German bishop. But I’m still skeptical.
 
These are very serious allegations and can’t be brushed away by the Bishops. It is alarming that some of them are trying.
 
Prodigal_Son said:
This focus on wealth seems to me aways off the mark. If anything, what’s motivating opposition to Francis is either (a) the objective evidence of his wrongdoing, which is not inconsiderable, or (b) a deep and abiding conservatism about doctrine and pastoral care that finds Francis’s approach odious.
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There is another group opposed to Pope Francis on ideological grounds, to be sure. It may be that they are in a rather odd situation of opposing any attempt to depose him, as that is contrary to traditional Catholicism. I have noted that here.

As for there being considerable evidence, one witness whose testimony could be taken apart be a first year law student, and, what else was there?
 
pnewton said:
As for there being considerable evidence, one witness whose testimony could be taken apart be a first year law student, and, what else was there?
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A witness of impeccable reliability, as noted by numerous bishops and by George Weigel, among others. And a great deal of corroborating evidence. I am open to another explanation; I am open to being told how Vigano misunderstood or erred in his testimony. But no one is offering such explanations - least of all Francis. All I have heard thus far is defense lawyers tactics for deflecting and casting doubts. That’s not evidence.
 
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LittleFlower said:
🤣 I’m just giving a somewhat rounded view point. Others have mentioned the Ecumenical councils.
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That should actually be a local council of the RCC–or possibly even just the archdiocese of Rome.

He is a bishop of the RCC, which is the entity to determine whatever about him.

hawk

hawk
 
Prodigal_Son said:
A witness of impeccable reliability, as noted by numerous bishops and by George Weigel, among others. And a great deal of corroborating evidence.
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I keep looking. I have not found anything. Several people keep saying there is evidence. They have not shown it. I found this statement that says Vigano was factual wrong.

https://www.archchicago.org/stateme...uncio-to-the-united-states-carlo-maria-vigano

It seems Cardinal Cupich is right and AB Vigano was wrong.
On July 7, 2016, Pope Francis named him a member of the Congregation for Bishops.
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On October 9, 2016, Pope Francis announced that Cupich would be elevated to the College of Cardinals on November 19, 2016.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blase_J._Cupich
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pnewton said:
It seems Cardinal Cupich is right and AB Vigano was wrong.
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This is the slightest detail, and is immaterial to the thrust of Vigano’s letter. And in fact, Cupich does not say a single thing in that letter that contradicts any major claim in Vigano’s letter.
 
pnewton said:
Several people keep saying there is evidence.
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At least a dozen bishops have confirmed portions of the letter, and Pope Benedict’s camp has confirmed that there were sanctions on McCarrick. Moreover, every priest and bishop I trust is demanding an account from Pope Francis. (That may be subjective evidence, but it is valid evidence for me).
 
Prodigal_Son said:
This is the slightest detail, and is immaterial to the thrust of Vigano’s letter. And in fact, Cupich does not say a single thing in that letter that contradicts any major claim in Vigano’s letter.
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AB Vigano did not know the year of these alleged sanctions. Since he wrote this letter from memory, then any error in memory, or indications that he may not remember everything accurately, is major.
Prodigal_Son said:
every priest and bishop I trust is demanding an account from Pope Francis.
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Cardinal diNardo wrote asking for an investigation in general, not an account from Pope Francis. It sounds good to me!
 
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