C
Church_Militant
Guest
Sonseeker said:
Pax tecum,
Fool Bill? Come now… Matthew 5: 21 & 22.
Pax tecum,
Depravity of Man:The difference between Catholics and n-C Christainity?
- Status
D
DustinsDad
Guest
I thought this thread was done. If we’re all still posting, I’m going to jump back in the fray! I’m kind of itching to…:bounce:
DustinsDad
DustinsDad
2
2Rollin_Stoned
Guest
CM once suggested some Calumine lotion for that disorder.
DD. Help me push this dead horse carcass outta the way so we can all move on. Stop hittin’ it willya!?
S
sonseeker
Guest
Let’s go from the top of your post.
MaggieOh:
MaggieOh:
With respect to that, you also quote from Ws 2:23:
This clearly contradicts what Paul says in Rom 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—“ What does envy of the devil have to with death entering the world? Nothing; death entered the world through Adam’s disobedience; that is what happens when you read other than the scripture; do you see the contradiction between the deuterocanonicals and the scripture?
You go on to quote from Ws 3:9-11:
Ws 3:9-11:
MaggieOh:
(continued below)
Would explain to me what you mean by “Neo-Calvinists?” You have used that before in the same sentence with Calvinists. Please explain what you mean.
1 Tim 2:14 says that Adam was not deceived. Adam knew full well what he was doing, he did not fall into a trap; it was Eve who was deceived, but sin and death did not enter because of her, but because of Adam.
With respect to that, you also quote from Ws 2:23:
Ws 2:23 said:
This clearly contradicts what Paul says in Rom 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—“ What does envy of the devil have to with death entering the world? Nothing; death entered the world through Adam’s disobedience; that is what happens when you read other than the scripture; do you see the contradiction between the deuterocanonicals and the scripture?
You go on to quote from Ws 3:9-11:
Ws 3:9-11:
The writer of Genesis uses the Hebrew word “yom,” a literal 24 hour day. He also uses the phrase, “and there was evening and there was morning, a second day”…”third day,” and so on. There is no indication of eons of time.
(continued below)
S
sonseeker
Guest
(continued from post #163)
Please read the following quote from C.A. Wilson:
I was not always the “literalist” I am today. I’ve always had a profound respect for the Bible, but accepted that the use of poetic forms meant that the record could often be interpreted symbolically where now I take it literally—though of course there are times when symbolism is clearly utilized. Thus in later scriptures “Egypt” can be a geographic country or a symbolic term.
That literalism is especially true in relation to Genesis chapters 1 through 11, often considered allegorical or mythical, where my researches have led me to the conclusion that this is profound writing, meant to be taken literally. There was a real Adam, creation that was contemporaneous for the various life forms as shown in Genesis chapter 1, and a consistent style of history writing—such as the outlines given in Genesis 1, then zeroing in on the specifics relating to mankind in Genesis chapter 2; the history of all the early peoples in Genesis chapter 10, then the concentration on Abraham and his descendants from Genesis chapter 11 onwards. Early man, “the birth of the lady of the rib,” long-living men, giants in the earth (animals, birds, and men), the flood, the tower of Babel—and much more—point to factual, accurate recording of history in these early chapters of Genesis.
Over 40 years have passed since I first became professionally involved in biblical archeology and my commitment to the Bible as the world’s greatest history book is firmly settled. As Psalm 119:98 states, “Forever, O Lord, your word is established in heaven.”
Read his book: *Rocks, Relics and Biblical Reliability *(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan/Richardson, TX: Probe, 1977); the above quote is from: John Ankerberg & John Weldon, *Ready with an Answer For the Tough Questions About God *(Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publisher, 1997), p. 276
Also, please explain what you mean by “Literalism destroys the whole meaning of salvation history.” I do not understand what you mean.
MaggieOh:
MaggieOh:
Bill
Please read the following quote from C.A. Wilson:
I was not always the “literalist” I am today. I’ve always had a profound respect for the Bible, but accepted that the use of poetic forms meant that the record could often be interpreted symbolically where now I take it literally—though of course there are times when symbolism is clearly utilized. Thus in later scriptures “Egypt” can be a geographic country or a symbolic term.
That literalism is especially true in relation to Genesis chapters 1 through 11, often considered allegorical or mythical, where my researches have led me to the conclusion that this is profound writing, meant to be taken literally. There was a real Adam, creation that was contemporaneous for the various life forms as shown in Genesis chapter 1, and a consistent style of history writing—such as the outlines given in Genesis 1, then zeroing in on the specifics relating to mankind in Genesis chapter 2; the history of all the early peoples in Genesis chapter 10, then the concentration on Abraham and his descendants from Genesis chapter 11 onwards. Early man, “the birth of the lady of the rib,” long-living men, giants in the earth (animals, birds, and men), the flood, the tower of Babel—and much more—point to factual, accurate recording of history in these early chapters of Genesis.
Over 40 years have passed since I first became professionally involved in biblical archeology and my commitment to the Bible as the world’s greatest history book is firmly settled. As Psalm 119:98 states, “Forever, O Lord, your word is established in heaven.”
Read his book: *Rocks, Relics and Biblical Reliability *(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan/Richardson, TX: Probe, 1977); the above quote is from: John Ankerberg & John Weldon, *Ready with an Answer For the Tough Questions About God *(Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publisher, 1997), p. 276
Also, please explain what you mean by “Literalism destroys the whole meaning of salvation history.” I do not understand what you mean.
Sodom, the sin is the lack of hospitality that is represented by the desire of the men to take hold of the angels and to “have their way with them”. The offer of Lot’s daughters was a ploy to prevent the desecration to strangers in the town. Lot did not intend giving over his daughters.I have heard this argument about the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah being “a lack of hospitality,” from only one other camp—the “Homosexual Christians.” The sin of the S & G, with respect to Lot, was about homosexual behavior; it was alluded to in Gen 13:13. Again, the only ones I hear who dispute this are “Gay Christians,” (an oxymoron if there ever was one).
MaggieOh said:
Your quote from Ws 3 above has you in a bind here Maggie. If you believe God has chosen ones, how can you deny double predestination? What becomes of the not-chosen ones, and why/how?
Bill
M
MaggieOH
Guest
Well I have provided you with some new fodder, go DD. I am sure that you will have a lot of fun with what are not all that good in the way of responses.
M
MaggieOH
Guest
Sonseeker,
Christianity that does not include all of the Wisdom Books is a Christianity that is bereft of something that is so very beautiful.
FYI, Calvin did not remove the Wisdom books from the Scriptures. The Geneva Bible has all of the Books, so if you claim to be a Calvinist then you should follow Calvin in everything that he taught.
The truth happens to be that neo-Calvinists are in fact picking and choosing what they want to use in order to avoid the truths that are to be found in the Wisdom Books.
You say that these books are not inspired. Well I disagree with a big DISAGREE, with you. I consider these books to be very inspired. The authors speak of the action of the Holy Spirit. They also speak of Eternal Life, that is for all who choose to follow a righteous path, and there is an element of prophecy.
If you refuse to read these Scriptures then you cannot possibly become inspired by what is written within them. As I have already pointed out, within the first few chapters of the Book of Wisdom I discovered that the author was writing about Jesus as Messiah, and that this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. Look at the following and tell me that you cannot see the reference to Jesus:
“He claims to have knowledge of God and calls himself son of the Lord. He has become a reproach to our way of thinking; even to meet him is burdensome to us…” (Ws 2: 13-14)
and “Let us see the truth of what he says and find out what his end will be. If the righteous is a son of God, God will defend him and deliver him from his adversaries.” (Ws 2:17-18)
Now compare this to the Gospels:
“The people stood by watching. As for the rulers, they jeered at him, saying to one another: Let the man who saved others now save himself, for he is the Messiah, the chosen one of God!” (Lk 23:35)
and:
“So you are the king of the Jews? Free yourself” (Lk 23:37)
and:
“So you are the Messiah? Save yourself and us as well!” (Lk 23:39)
The words that are found in Luke’s Gospel are a direct echo of the words that are found in the Book of Wisdom, proving that the author of the Book of Wisdom was inspired by the Holy Spirit in everything that was written down.
To state otherwise is to believe what can only be called believing in a deception.
Christianity that does not include all of the Wisdom Books is a Christianity that is bereft of something that is so very beautiful.
FYI, Calvin did not remove the Wisdom books from the Scriptures. The Geneva Bible has all of the Books, so if you claim to be a Calvinist then you should follow Calvin in everything that he taught.
The truth happens to be that neo-Calvinists are in fact picking and choosing what they want to use in order to avoid the truths that are to be found in the Wisdom Books.
You say that these books are not inspired. Well I disagree with a big DISAGREE, with you. I consider these books to be very inspired. The authors speak of the action of the Holy Spirit. They also speak of Eternal Life, that is for all who choose to follow a righteous path, and there is an element of prophecy.
If you refuse to read these Scriptures then you cannot possibly become inspired by what is written within them. As I have already pointed out, within the first few chapters of the Book of Wisdom I discovered that the author was writing about Jesus as Messiah, and that this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. Look at the following and tell me that you cannot see the reference to Jesus:
“He claims to have knowledge of God and calls himself son of the Lord. He has become a reproach to our way of thinking; even to meet him is burdensome to us…” (Ws 2: 13-14)
and “Let us see the truth of what he says and find out what his end will be. If the righteous is a son of God, God will defend him and deliver him from his adversaries.” (Ws 2:17-18)
Now compare this to the Gospels:
“The people stood by watching. As for the rulers, they jeered at him, saying to one another: Let the man who saved others now save himself, for he is the Messiah, the chosen one of God!” (Lk 23:35)
and:
“So you are the king of the Jews? Free yourself” (Lk 23:37)
and:
“So you are the Messiah? Save yourself and us as well!” (Lk 23:39)
The words that are found in Luke’s Gospel are a direct echo of the words that are found in the Book of Wisdom, proving that the author of the Book of Wisdom was inspired by the Holy Spirit in everything that was written down.
To state otherwise is to believe what can only be called believing in a deception.
M
MaggieOH
Guest
Sonseeker,
Christianity that does not include all of the Wisdom Books is a Christianity that is bereft of something that is so very beautiful.
FYI, Calvin did not remove the Wisdom books from the Scriptures. The Geneva Bible has all of the Books, so if you claim to be a Calvinist then you should follow Calvin in everything that he taught.
The truth happens to be that neo-Calvinists are in fact picking and choosing what they want to use in order to avoid the truths that are to be found in the Wisdom Books.
You say that these books are not inspired. Well I disagree with a big DISAGREE, with you. I consider these books to be very inspired. The authors speak of the action of the Holy Spirit. They also speak of Eternal Life, that is for all who choose to follow a righteous path, and there is an element of prophecy.
If you refuse to read these Scriptures then you cannot possibly become inspired by what is written within them. As I have already pointed out, within the first few chapters of the Book of Wisdom I discovered that the author was writing about Jesus as Messiah, and that this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. Look at the following and tell me that you cannot see the reference to Jesus:
“He claims to have knowledge of God and calls himself son of the Lord. He has become a reproach to our way of thinking; even to meet him is burdensome to us…” (Ws 2: 13-14)
and “Let us see the truth of what he says and find out what his end will be. If the righteous is a son of God, God will defend him and deliver him from his adversaries.” (Ws 2:17-18)
Now compare this to the Gospels:
“The people stood by watching. As for the rulers, they jeered at him, saying to one another: Let the man who saved others now save himself, for he is the Messiah, the chosen one of God!” (Lk 23:35)
and:
“So you are the king of the Jews? Free yourself” (Lk 23:37)
and:
“So you are the Messiah? Save yourself and us as well!” (Lk 23:39)
The words that are found in Luke’s Gospel are a direct echo of the words that are found in the Book of Wisdom, proving that the author of the Book of Wisdom was inspired by the Holy Spirit in everything that was written down.
To state otherwise is to believe what can only be called believing in a deception.
Christianity that does not include all of the Wisdom Books is a Christianity that is bereft of something that is so very beautiful.
FYI, Calvin did not remove the Wisdom books from the Scriptures. The Geneva Bible has all of the Books, so if you claim to be a Calvinist then you should follow Calvin in everything that he taught.
The truth happens to be that neo-Calvinists are in fact picking and choosing what they want to use in order to avoid the truths that are to be found in the Wisdom Books.
You say that these books are not inspired. Well I disagree with a big DISAGREE, with you. I consider these books to be very inspired. The authors speak of the action of the Holy Spirit. They also speak of Eternal Life, that is for all who choose to follow a righteous path, and there is an element of prophecy.
If you refuse to read these Scriptures then you cannot possibly become inspired by what is written within them. As I have already pointed out, within the first few chapters of the Book of Wisdom I discovered that the author was writing about Jesus as Messiah, and that this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. Look at the following and tell me that you cannot see the reference to Jesus:
“He claims to have knowledge of God and calls himself son of the Lord. He has become a reproach to our way of thinking; even to meet him is burdensome to us…” (Ws 2: 13-14)
and “Let us see the truth of what he says and find out what his end will be. If the righteous is a son of God, God will defend him and deliver him from his adversaries.” (Ws 2:17-18)
Now compare this to the Gospels:
“The people stood by watching. As for the rulers, they jeered at him, saying to one another: Let the man who saved others now save himself, for he is the Messiah, the chosen one of God!” (Lk 23:35)
and:
“So you are the king of the Jews? Free yourself” (Lk 23:37)
and:
“So you are the Messiah? Save yourself and us as well!” (Lk 23:39)
The words that are found in Luke’s Gospel are a direct echo of the words that are found in the Book of Wisdom, proving that the author of the Book of Wisdom was inspired by the Holy Spirit in everything that was written down.
To state otherwise is to believe what can only be called believing in a deception.
S
sonseeker
Guest
Thank you Maggie,
You have completely ignored all of my questions.
Bill
M
MaggieOH
Guest
After reading again the material that is provided on a site that promotes TULIP, I have yet another reason to state that the notion of the Total Depravity of Man is not just abhorent, but that it also contradicts the Scriptures, from the Book of Genesis, right through to the Apocalypse.
First of all, the Scriptures recognize the difference between the righteous and those who chose to be wicked. I have already pointed to some of the Scriptures that point to the universal truth that Man is made in the image of God, and that it was due to the jealousy of Satan, that man fell into sin. Man has tendencies to do good and to do evil. In other words, the Scripture does not support the idea that man is totally depraved.
Second, the idea of Total Depravity of Man, in the past has led to the very harsh discipline of children, to the point that the children are so psychologically messed up that they end up believing that they are wicked and evil. I would love to expand upon all of the reasons that I have for making this claim, but this might lead us off the topic. Instead I will concentrate upon how harsh discipline is so harmful in a variety of situations.
My first example is that of the canton of Geneva at the time of Calvin. The discipline within the canton, under the guidance of Calvin was extremely harsh. From what I have read about the actions that could lead to very strong discipline (like being killed) which indicated that under this type of theology man is seen in such a bad light, that BIG BROTHER had to be doing the watching, even without the modern camera equipment. In those days the ecclesiastic political leaders relied upon information supplied by informers. This was typical in those days. If someone was alleged to have blasphemed then that person could lose his or her life for that blasphemy. My second example concerns Scotland under the leadership of John Knox and the Kirk. There is at least one case where someone was put to death for expressing something that was in disagreement with the leadership. The charge was blasphemy, the young man became an example to others, and nothing could save his life.
My third example comes from a book that dealt with the harsh disciplinarians of the nineteenth century and how their pedagogy had such a bad effect upon the pscyhe of individual children. In those days a child was seen to be evil and had to be disciplined in order to become “good”. The child who might be a little bit on the impish side was seen in a very harsh light and the discipline applied tended to be a discipline so harsh that the child could be psychologically damaged forever, being left with the impression that she was bad.
Even though I have not elaborated upon these examples, they are the reason that I reject so thoroughly the doctrine of the total depravity of man, as opposed to the theory of concupiscence, or the consequence of the fall that causes man to sin against God.
The Scripture tells us that God alone does not see us in terms of Total Depravity. Rather the Scripture tells us that there are those who are wicked, who in will spit in the face of the righteous, as well as thouse who live in justice and peace, because they follow the Will of God.
Calvin’s systerm, as well as that of the Kirk or John Knox tends to neglect that it is God alone who forgives our sins. It is God who will mete out the punishment for serious sin. Not man. Calvin’s system is a punishing one. There is no forgiveness for those who have sinned but who repent in that kind of system.
First of all, the Scriptures recognize the difference between the righteous and those who chose to be wicked. I have already pointed to some of the Scriptures that point to the universal truth that Man is made in the image of God, and that it was due to the jealousy of Satan, that man fell into sin. Man has tendencies to do good and to do evil. In other words, the Scripture does not support the idea that man is totally depraved.
Second, the idea of Total Depravity of Man, in the past has led to the very harsh discipline of children, to the point that the children are so psychologically messed up that they end up believing that they are wicked and evil. I would love to expand upon all of the reasons that I have for making this claim, but this might lead us off the topic. Instead I will concentrate upon how harsh discipline is so harmful in a variety of situations.
My first example is that of the canton of Geneva at the time of Calvin. The discipline within the canton, under the guidance of Calvin was extremely harsh. From what I have read about the actions that could lead to very strong discipline (like being killed) which indicated that under this type of theology man is seen in such a bad light, that BIG BROTHER had to be doing the watching, even without the modern camera equipment. In those days the ecclesiastic political leaders relied upon information supplied by informers. This was typical in those days. If someone was alleged to have blasphemed then that person could lose his or her life for that blasphemy. My second example concerns Scotland under the leadership of John Knox and the Kirk. There is at least one case where someone was put to death for expressing something that was in disagreement with the leadership. The charge was blasphemy, the young man became an example to others, and nothing could save his life.
My third example comes from a book that dealt with the harsh disciplinarians of the nineteenth century and how their pedagogy had such a bad effect upon the pscyhe of individual children. In those days a child was seen to be evil and had to be disciplined in order to become “good”. The child who might be a little bit on the impish side was seen in a very harsh light and the discipline applied tended to be a discipline so harsh that the child could be psychologically damaged forever, being left with the impression that she was bad.
Even though I have not elaborated upon these examples, they are the reason that I reject so thoroughly the doctrine of the total depravity of man, as opposed to the theory of concupiscence, or the consequence of the fall that causes man to sin against God.
The Scripture tells us that God alone does not see us in terms of Total Depravity. Rather the Scripture tells us that there are those who are wicked, who in will spit in the face of the righteous, as well as thouse who live in justice and peace, because they follow the Will of God.
Calvin’s systerm, as well as that of the Kirk or John Knox tends to neglect that it is God alone who forgives our sins. It is God who will mete out the punishment for serious sin. Not man. Calvin’s system is a punishing one. There is no forgiveness for those who have sinned but who repent in that kind of system.
M
MaggieOH
Guest
What questions? Was there anything of merit that needed an answer? I think not.
Until you accept all of the Books of the Scripture, one cannot take your position all that seriously, because of all the necessary flaws in logic due to the missing Scriptures.
Maggie
D
DustinsDad
Guest
I better go with my inclination to not go further for now. I’m not sure if SonSeeker’s really seeking, or merely been “declared” a seeker (forensic, legal declarations apparently being powerless to affect change in the lives of us totally depraved piles of dung and all.)
But seriously, we’ve drifted into other areas off topic to this thread, and it is apparent (to me at least) that our Calvinist friend isn’t all that interested in really opening up. Ah well, we should all keep praying with joyful hope in the Holy Spirit taking it from here.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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