Depravity of Man:The difference between Catholics and n-C Christainity?

[sonseeker]

Yes the sin nature is still present in the man even when regenerated (Rom 7:14-25). No the regenerated man is no longer dead (Eph 2:4ff). You are mistaken in your understanding of Gen 6. Since the fall, all men reject God. That is the truth of total depravity/inability. Men do not seek God; in fact, they want nothing to do with God. Even though it cannot be squared empirically, it is so, because the the Scripture says it so. Noah sought God by God’s enabling.

It seems to me that you believe that men do seek God, in spite of what the scripture says. So be it; I cannot convince you.

The use of “righteous” in Mt. 10:41 is speaking of a believer; in Lk 23:50 Joseph of Arimathea is also a believer, John describes him as a disciple of Jesus (Jn 19:38-42); in James (5:16), he is writing to believers; they are all believers, who have believed by grace through faith, and that not of their own. They are all believers. That applies also to Ps 1. A blessed man is one who has believed in God, by God’s grace.

Yes, God desires all men to be saved, but surely you see that He does not save all men. Again, you must study the passages more.

As far as Rom 2:14-16 Paul says that by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16, 3:2, 3:5 etc). You are building a doctrine for yourself on one verse in spite of the many that speak against it; you do not understand Rom 2:14-16; study it more. No one gains the kingdom by keeping any law.

As far as post 118, I stated that though God rewards works, he is not obligated to reward them; works are simply something the believer ought to do (Lk 17:7-10). Works merit nothing. Salvation is all of God, you contribute nothing. Good works are those God has prepared for you (Eph2:10), and they are simply what you ought to do. If you can merit salvation, you don’t need Christ.

As far as my screen name, I am a believer, and I now seek Christ. You do not understand.

Bill

 

[sonseeker]

Church Militant:

I will never believe in an unjust God that condemns the innocent, especially when He teaches us in His word that it is morally wrong for us to do that very thing. This would make God immoral by His own standards and I will never believe that.

If this condemns me and all my Catholic brothers and sisters in your eyes, and cuts us off from charitable dialogue, that is extremely sad, but that is better than error (IMO), and that is what I see this as.

In the final analysis, this proves my point about the difference in world views in that those who hold this opinion see God as a cold and merciless machine that really cares nothing for His creation, while I see Him as the one who loves His creation so much that He sent His Only Son to die as a sacrificial lamb for us all, so that all men might come to know Him and spend eternity with Him in heaven. This means that those who hold that view will have to find some way to disregard the justice and mercy of God while thanking God for choosing them to be saved while all the rest of mankind goes to hell whether they’ve done anything to deserve it or not. These two divergent concepts run through both religions, even to their respective cores.

A wounded nature is one thing…a disinterested God that does not love what He sent His Son to redeem is something completely else again.

God’s mercy and peace be with you all.

God is never unjust, nor is He disinterested. In your view of man being “wounded,” you see man as innocent, which he is not.

Yes, Michael, your worldview is good, and makes you feel warm; it makes you feel fuzzy and cozy, but is it correct? Is it biblical? Those two questions are important. This is not about what makes one feel good; it is about truth. Many will go through this life feeling good about a loving God, only to be shocked to find out that He is also a just and judging God, and He has told us how to gain His Kingdom, and many ignore Him (IMHO).

Bill

 

[Mickey]

**Hence, in whatever state a person is, he sometimes finds himself making pure and intense prayers. For even from that first and lowest sort, which has to do with recalling the future judgment, the one who is still subject to the punishment of terror and the fear of judgment is occasionally so struck with compunction that he is filled with no less joy of spirit from the richness of his supplication than the one who, examining the kindnesses of God and going over them in the purity of his heart, dissolves into unspeakable gladness and delight. For, according to the words of the Lord, the one who realizes that more has been forgiven him begins to love more. **
St. John Cassian

 

[Church_Militant]

sonseeker:

God is never unjust, nor is He disinterested. In your view of man being “wounded,” you see man as innocent, which he is not.

Yes, Michael, your worldview is good, and makes you feel warm; it makes you feel fuzzy and cozy, but is it correct? Is it biblical? Those two questions are important. This is not about what makes one feel good; it is about truth. Many will go through this life feeling good about a loving God, only to be shocked to find out that He is also a just and judging God, and He has told us how to gain His Kingdom, and many ignore Him (IMHO).
Bill

I don’t think I can make you understand, and I don’t think I can understand your position either. I know that you think I’m unBiblical in this, but my belief is based on having read the Word of God all the way through, all 73 books, from cover to cover…many times, not on a few verses and some man’s interpretation of those few verses… Calvin was dead wrong and so is his predestination and all that goes with it (IMO).

It’s not warm & fuzzy… not at all. It’s knowing God and knowing myself and who I am in His eyes and as much of Him as I can get hold of through His Son and His Holy Spirit.There is no pride in being “God’s Elect”, not because we were “chosen to be saved”, but because He called us and we responded to His grace and mercy and turned to Him. He loves all people and wants them all to come to Him. I’ll never believe anything different based on someone else’s intrepretation of a few Bible verses as opposed to the whole Word of God and the Tradition of the Christian church for over 2,000 years. Calvinism is less than 500 years old, and the result of schism. No…sorry Bill. Not interested.

God bless you and keep you and I hope we can sit together in Heaven at the marriage supper of te lamb and laugh at all this foolish controversy.
Pax tecum,

 

[MaggieOH]

Zooey:

Methodists don’t believe in the “utter depravity” either. We believe that if the human race were in a state of depravity, no one would ever want to turn to God. And if they did, would not be able to–there would be nothing in us that would make us desire to see God, & in any case, there would be no capacity for conversion to Him under those conditions.
Mr Wesley taught that the human heart & soul are made to want God, and that God sends prevenient grace (grace that goes before turning to God) to draw us to Himself.

That is very true. The Methodists do not subscribe to TULIP. Also, I do not think that this is a teaching of Martin Luther. It was something that was taught by Calvin, and later refinded by the Reformed Baptists who also preach double predestination.

 

[MaggieOH]

sonseeker:

Church Militant says:

I believe that Scripture explicitly teaches the depravity of man. I believe further, that the Scripture is manifold in its purpose, one of which is, that God intends the Scripture to be understood by the creature.

Actually, if you had a Bible with the whole of the Scripture, that is a Bible that includes the Deuterocanonical books then the conclusions that you reach will be proved wrong.

The Wisdom books give a very different view of man than one gets from just reading from Genesis and Exodus, or even Isaiah.

I think that by keeping to the notion that man is so depraved that he or she can never do anything right is to ignore the very lessons that are given to us in the Scripture. I will quote from the Book of Wisdom as a beginning point:

“Love justice, you who rule over the world. Think rightly of God, seek Him with simplicity of heart for he reveals himself to those who do not challenge him and is found by those who do not distrust him. Crooked thinking distances you from God… Wisdom does not enter the wicked nor remain in a body that is enslaved to sin. The Holy Spirit who instructs us shuns deceit; it keeps aloof from foolishness and is ill at ease when injustice is done.” (Ws 1:1-3, 4-5)

Even from this obscure verse, one can see that man is attracted to God through the Grace of God. King David for example was beloved of God but he committed adultery and murder to cover his adultery. He was punished by God, and through his remorse and sacrifices he was forgiven by God, and restored to Grace. The Scripture speaks of David as being a man after God’s own heart. From David we have many of the Psalms, including the beautiful “create a clean heart in me oh God.” etc. etc. This psalm is a reminder that we are dependent upon God, even when for a moment we have turned away from God and have sinned. It is also a reminder that those who seek God are not totally depraved, and this is a part of the message of the Wisdom Books.

 

[DustinsDad]

sonseeker:

Yes the sin nature is still present in the man even when regenerated (Rom 7:14-25). No the regenerated man is no longer dead (Eph 2:4ff).

Indeed, the “sin nature” you refer to is what we call concupiscence - it’s the wounding of our nature that remains even after “regeneration” when we are no longer spiritually dead but alive in Christ.

I urge you to recall, however, that though this wounding remains in man’s nature after coming to the Lord, the Lord pours out His graces on us and by those graces allows us to overcome personal sin:
If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:17)
and
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Romans 6:1-2)
But again, there is a still an unanswered question - “Was Noah’s every thought continually evil or not? Did that change with his regeneration?”

And another one for you that I’d really like to know…what is one to make of the latter part of the Westminster Confession’s statement:
“This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.” (Westminster Confession, Chapter VI, Verse V).
Does your theology claim that even after regeneration, every motion of man “is truly and properly sin”?

You are mistaken in your understanding of Gen 6. Since the fall, all men reject God. That is the truth of total depravity/inability. Men do not seek God; in fact, they want nothing to do with God. Even though it cannot be squared empirically, it is so, because the the Scripture says it so.

To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time men began to call upon the name of the LORD. (Genisis 4:26)
Your interpretation misses the fact that men called upon the name of the Lord after the fall and prior to the massive turning away leading up to the time of Noah. Scripture, my friend, clearly says so.

Noah sought God by God’s enabling.

Yes of course Noah sought God by God’s “enabling”. He accepted and responded to God’s grace. No one else did.

It seems to me that you believe that men do seek God, in spite of what the scripture says. So be it; I cannot convince you.

We don’t seek God apart from God. As I’ve already shown you from the Catechism, we Catholics believe the first move is always His reaching out to us. I don’t know how much clearer I can make it. I’m beginning to think you don’t want to know what the Church teaches.

The use of “righteous” in Mt. 10:41 is speaking of a believer; in Lk 23:50 Joseph of Arimathea is also a believer, John describes him as a disciple of Jesus (Jn 19:38-42); in James (5:16), he is writing to believers; they are all believers, who have believed by grace through faith, and that not of their own. They are all believers. That applies also to Ps 1. A blessed man is one who has believed in God, by God’s grace.

So now you then admit that God makes the believer righteous here on earth - a direct contradiction to your previous statement in post #132: “Rom 3:10 says there is NONE RIGHTEOUS. You believe that you are made righteous by God, while you are here on this earth. Scripture teaches that righteousness is positional; it is not real” - but I’ll take your current words nonetheless. We are now on the same page here at least - Hooha!

Yes, God desires all men to be saved, but surely you see that He does not save all men.

Of course. I didn’t say God saves all men, I said God offers all men salvation through Christ Jesus - God’s will that all men be saved isn’t something that He forces, it’s something that he offers.

(continued below…)

 

[DustinsDad]

(Continued from above…)

sonseeker:

As far as Rom 2:14-16 Paul says that by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16, 3:2, 3:5 etc). You are building a doctrine for yourself on one verse in spite of the many that speak against it; you do not understand Rom 2:14-16; study it more. No one gains the kingdom by keeping any law.

I never said anyone gains the kingdom apart from Christ, whether by keeping OT ritual law (which is primarily what Paul is discussing) or the law written on our hearts (the moral or natural law).

I said anyone who gains the kingdom does so by God’s grace and by the merits won by Jesus Christ. To that, I would hope, we agree.

As far as post 118, I stated that though God rewards works, he is not obligated to reward them; works are simply something the believer ought to do (Lk 17:7-10). Works merit nothing.

I don’t recall anyone mentioning “obligation”. It is fine enough for me that you say God rewards works. because that is exactly we are saying. His word is good enough for me. And disputing between “reward” and “merit” is something I won’t do. I will not fall prey to “a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words” (cf 1 Timothy 6:4).

Salvation is all of God, you contribute nothing. Good works are those God has prepared for you (Eph2:10), and they are simply what you ought to do.

Amen, Salvation is all of God, a free gift offered to us by Him - and by His grace, we accept that free gift.

I would warn you, however, not to downplay the good works God sets before you and gives you the grace to do as merely an “optional” part of your walk with Christ, your abiding with Christ, your cooperation with the grace He freely gives you:“Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.” (Matt.7:24-27)

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Romans 2:6-8)

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Galations 5:6)

Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. (Galatians 6:7-8)

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James 2:17)

Nope…negleting this aspect of God’s gift of Salvation is very very dangerous. Perhaps eternally so!

(Continued below…)

 

[DustinsDad]

(…continued from above)

]
If you can merit salvation, you don’t need Christ.

Amen and Alleluia. No one merits salvation but Christ. At the Council of Trent, the official Catholic response to the Protestant Reformers, the Church stated: “[N]othing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For if it is by grace, it is no more by works. Otherwise, as the apostle says, grace is no more grace.” (, “Decree on Justification,” ch. 8, citing Rom 11:6)

Trent thus teaches that nothing prior to justification, including works merits justification.

In fact, Catholic theology would teach that works of love proper are impossible prior to justification because prior to that time the theological virtue of love has not been infused (poured) into the believer’s heart (cf. Rom 5:5–“God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us”). The only kind of love which a person has before justification is the self-oriented love which he shows to those who he hopes will do him good. But this kind of love doesn’t count for anything with God (Matt. 5:46).

As far as my screen name, I am a believer, and I now seek Christ. You do not understand.

I understand more than you think. I know you are seeking the Son, and that is why I am glad you are here. Stick around my friend. Stick around.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[sonseeker]

DustinsDad,

I am about finished posting here. The questions posed in your last post, I have answered; it seems that you are not satisfied with my answers and so ask for an answer to the same questions again. Re-read my posts.

As far as the sin nature staying after regeneration, call it what you will, it is sin (Rom 7:14ff; Gal 5:17). Sin will be with the believer until he dies. Only then is he freed from sin.

As far as righteousness, I have answered that, but will do so one final time; God makes no one righteous in this life, rather, he declares them to be righteous. His declaration is a forensic, legal declaration; because of continuing sin (see above paragraph), no one is *really *righteous in this life. I know that is not Catholic teaching, but it is the clear teaching of Scripture. That is the basis of Luther’s snow-covered dunghill analogy.

Again, we are miles and miles apart in our theology. Your understanding of faith is in conflict with mine. There is work, but there is no merit.

Simply stated, you are Roman Catholic, following oral traditions, whatever they may be, with some Scripture; I follow the Scriptures; as you are not bound by my interpretation of Scripture, so I am not bound by your interpretations of it, nor am I bound by your oral traditions.

We will never meet on these issues. I am not ecumenical in my beliefs; I am not inclusive in my beliefs, but I am exclusive, as is Christ Jesus. I believe there is only one way, and that way is not the one that you have chosen. I will not compromise on what I believe, which is, Christ alone, grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone.

Grace
Bill

 

[sonseeker]

MaggieOH:

Actually, if you had a Bible with the whole of the Scripture, that is a Bible that includes the Deuterocanonical books then the conclusions that you reach will be proved wrong.

Your argument is very old, and very tiring; I do have the whole bible, and my conclusions are not wrong. Read my post above to DustinsDad.

We are so far apart as to make it very clear, that we cannot both be right.

Bill

 

[MariaG]

I personally wish to thank you Bill. I think I have come closer to understanding your position. I see that total depravity must not mean wounded in any way not necessarily because the two definitions are not similar, but because of the implication of free will vs. elect/predestination.

Thanks for the discussion. I will continue to pray for God to lead me to all truth and pray you do the same.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[sonseeker]

MariaG:

I personally wish to thank you Bill. I think I have come closer to understanding your position. I see that total depravity must not mean wounded in any way not necessarily because the two definitions are not similar, but because of the implication of free will vs. elect/predestination.

Thanks for the discussion. I will continue to pray for God to lead me to all truth and pray you do the same.

God Bless,
Maria

Thanks Maria; there are great differences between the theology of the RCC and Protestant theology.

God Bless you,
Bill

 

[DustinsDad]

sonseeker:

DustinsDad, I am about finished posting here…

Well thanks so much for the interesting diaologue - and for disagreeing respectfully. Of all the “flavors” of Protestantism, I find Calvinism the most enjoyable to examine and compare to Catholicism in detail.

That being said, I will now attempt to muster all the self-discipline the good Lord has given me, and not adress anything else in your closing post.

Really…

I mean it…

And this is hard because there’s about a hundred other things I want to say…

About a hundred other Scripture passages I want to point out…

Like…

DOH!!!

Almost slipped there…

But really…

I’m not…

going to…

do it…

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[MaggieOH]

sonseeker:

Your argument is very old, and very tiring; I do have the whole bible, and my conclusions are not wrong. Read my post above to DustinsDad.

We are so far apart as to make it very clear, that we cannot both be right.

Bill

If you do not have a Bible that includes all of the Books of the Scripture, how can you possibly know that your conclusions are wrong. The books that are missing contain information that lend a credence to the remainder of the Scriptures.

The Wisdom Books alone give an insight that is not contained elsewhere in the Scriptures. This insight into the thinking of the wicked, and then how God loves those who do the Will of God, pours water on the whole idea of total depravity of man.

The real problem is one of interpretation. The literalist interpretation of the Scriptures takes away so much that is valuable in the Scriptures that helps to bring us closer to God.

If man was so depraved then no one would be able to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. You cannot expect to plead the blood of Christ if you have not led a life that is blameless.

So I will quote again from the Book of Wisdom. This time I will use some passages that I believe are prophecy, in that they point to Jesus as well as the Passion of Christ:

“He emphasizes the happy end of the righteous and boasts of having God as father. Let us see the truth of what he says and find out what his end will be. If the righteous is a son of God, God will defend him and deliver him from his adversaries. Let us humble and torture him to prove his self-control and test his patience. When we have condemned him to a shameful death, we may test his words. This is the way that they reason but they are mistaken, blinded by their malice. They do not know the mysteries of God, nor do they hope for the reward of a holy life; they do not believe that the blameless will be recompensed.” (Ws 2: 16-23)

“The souls of the just are in the hands of God and no torment shall touch them.” (Ws 3:1)

“Those who trust in him will penetrate the truth, those who are faithful will live with him in love, for his grace and mercy are for his chosen ones. But the godless who have ignored the upright and deserted the Lord, will meet the punishment their evil thoughts deserve.” (Ws 3: 9-10)

From this Scripture, and this is only a small portion of the Wisdom in this one book, one can see that the author is inspired to contrast the lives and rewards for those who remain in the Lord, to those who desert the Lord to follow Satan. The writer in this very early section of the Book of Wisdom emphasises the differences between the blameless and the wicked. In other words not every man is so totally depraved as some suggest through the notion of the total depravity of man.

The problem with the particular theology of total depravity is that it does not allow that man was made in the image of God.

 

[MaggieOH]

Due to my other commitments I have come to this thread at a very late stage. First of all I think that Dustin’s Dad has done a very good job of this topic. I agree with what he has to state. The same is true for Michael aka Church Militant.

I have not had time to read all of the posts that have been presented on the subject. At the outset of my own responses, I will go on record as stating that I do not believe that the Total Depravity of Man is found in the Scripture, and I do not accept the notion of double predestination as it is promoted in the TULIP theology of neo-Calvinism. In fact on this issue I do not agree with Calvin’s theology.

I need to point out that I believe that neo-Calvinists misrepresent the writings of St. Augustine, as well as the writings of other saints, as well as the early Church Fathers. There is much that can be disputed where the teachings of TULIP and especially the emphasis on double predestination is concerned.

As such, I want to take up some comments made by Michael. I do agree with the comments, and I want to expand upon them because there is a lot more in Scripture that supports the Catholic view, rather than the neo-Calvinist TULIP.

I will make several posts on the subject, and please feel free to comment (and Catholics please add to anything that I write).

 

[MaggieOH]

"Indeed, God created man to be the immortal likeness of his own nature, but the envy of the devil brought death to the world, ** and those who take his side shall experience death** " (Ws 2:23)

The reason that I have chosen this verse is its relevance to the writings of the Apostle Paul. The verse draws out the following:

1. Man is free to choose between doing the Will of God, or to side with Satan and do evil.
2. Man was created in the image of God. If man is created in the image of God, then man cannot be totally depraved, especially after receiving the Sacrament of Baptism.

These are the two major reasons but I cannot pass on the nuances of the verse, especially the manner in which it draws out the Scriptural meaning of death. It is my contention that when Scripture refers to death, it is not referring to physical death, that is of the flesh, but it is referring to the death of the spirit, a death that is caused by sin.

“… and those who take his side will experience death”.

What kind of death? We are all going to die in the flesh, because our lives on earth are limited by what has been ordained by God. So why does the writer make a point about death in this way? Because the author is attempting to bring out the consequences of doing evil by siding with Satan. The indulgence in certain activities, such as drinking too much alcohol and licentiousness brings about a destruction of the human spirit. What starts out in a small way, if not controlled, can get out of control leading to a point where a person reaches rock bottom. Some who reach that point never bounce back, but others accept the challenge of God’s grace and through remorse they repent of their sins.

This is brought out by the parable of the prodigal son. The son knows that he is to inherit a portion of his father’s property, and he demands that he receives that portion in advance. He takes his inheritance and indulges in a life of vice and licentiousness until he runs out of money and finds himself emptying slops in a pig pen. It is at this point that he realises what he is missing, and he decides to return to his father.

The lesson of this parable is that the son repents and seeks forgiveness from his father and he is welcomed back into the fold. This shows that anyone who has led a life that has been soul destroying always has the opportunity to repent and be forgiven.

Yet, under the theology of TULIP the man who has become depraved is seen as one who is a backslider who can never been forgiven.

 

[sonseeker]

MaggieOh:

If you do not have a Bible that includes all of the Books of the Scripture, how can you possibly know that your conclusions are wrong.Same question for you, if you neither have, nor even quote from the correct Bible, how do you know that your conclusions are right?

MaggieOh:

If man was so depraved then no one would be able to enter into the

Kingdom of Heaven. You cannot expect to plead the blood of Christ if you have not led a life that is blameless.Your first sentence is a biblically accurate one! I have no idea what you are talking about in your second sentence. What do you mean “plead the blood of Christ?” What are you talking about?

MaggieOh:

The problem with the particular theology of total depravity is that it does not allow that man was made in the image of God.

The problem with that statement is that it tells me that you have never read one shred of a Calvinist writer. You are working from hearsay, and why should I listen to hearsay. Quote one writer, who is Calvinist, who makes the statement that man is not made in God’s image. You cannot quote one, because no one has ever said that, and, because you are, most likely, parroting it from someone you have overheard, and you thought that it sounded clever, and that it creates a dilemma for me.

Your misrepresentation and misunderstanding of Calvin and TULIP is appalling. You need to learn about it before you criticize it.

Bill

 

[Mickey]

sonseeker:

Anyone who makes that kind of a statement is a fool; and anyone who reasons in the way that you have is likewise.

Your misrepresentation and misunderstanding of Calvin and TULIP is appalling.

Where’s the Christian charity?

 

[MaggieOH]

sonseeker:

S
Your misrepresentation and misunderstanding of Calvin and TULIP is appalling. You need to learn about it before you criticize it.

Bill

tut tut, not a lot of Christian charity here Bill.

How would you know what I have read? You do not know anything about my reading habits, neither do you know whether I parrot anybody in particular.

I have been around in apologetics for several years and I am familiar with the arguments on TULIP. I do not accept the double predestination that is proposed by the TULIP system because it condemns people without taking into consideration what is in fact in Scripture.

I have quoted from Scripture. You reject what I have quoted because of fear that you have concerning reading those books that have been banned from Protestant eyes for so long.

On the other hand I am very attracted to all of the Wisdom Books and I see in them the things that Protestants, particulary neo-Calvinists refuse to see about mankind.

The fact is man is made in the image of God. However, due to the influence of Satan, and man’s free will given to him by God, man fell into the trap of following the deceiver.

In Catholic terms we call this concupiscence. This is the name given by St. Augustine to explain why it is that even when God grants the free gift of grace there remains in man that stubborn resistance to grace and the desire to follow temptation.

We have choices, to follow the example of Christ in everything, or to follow the voice of the tempter. It is our choice and that is precisely what is written in the book of Wisdom:

“Those who trust in him will penetrate the truth, those who are faithful will live with him in love, for his grace and mercy are for his chosen ones. BUT THE GODLESS who have IGNORED the upright and DESERTED the Lord will meet the punishment their evil thoughts deserve, Unhappy are those who put no value on wisdom and instruction, their hope is in vain, their efforts useless…” (Wisdom 3: 9-11)

By refusing to read the Wisdom books you are not able to understand the breadth and depth of the meaning of the Scripture. By putting so much value on literalism, you remove the true spiritual meaning of the scriptures replacing that meaning with something that lacks the real truth that God was revealing to us.

Genesis does not set out Creation as literal 24 hour days. Each day in Genesis represent an eon, or a period of time that we do not understand. The use of the day and night is representative of time for the sake of simplicity, so that the activity of Creation is understood by the simple people for whom this account was intended. Literalism destroys the whole meaning of salvation history.

Salvation history begins with the Fall in the Garden of Eden. We then see the first fratricide, and we continue to see what happens when man continues to do evil instead of good. We must remember that this is a primitive man in comparison to our own times such that things that might be shocking to us are quite normal at that time. Hence in Sodom, the sin is the lack of hospitality that is represented by the desire of the men to take hold of the angels and to “have their way with them”. The offer of Lot’s daughters was a ploy to prevent the desecration to strangers in the town. Lot did not intend giving over his daughters.

We can get carried away with these things and miss the real points that are being made. Lot, for example was saved because he put himself in danger to save the strangers. The behaviour of the daughters after they leave the area is shown to be unsavoury through the names of the children that are born to them. Again by literalism we tend to miss the very subtlety of what is being stated about these other tribes. The set up is to show why it is that these tribes have a tendency to do what is evil, not that they are all evil.

Man is not double predestined. That is the error of Calvinism in that predestination is seen in terms of only a small number of elect. This goes against what Jesus taught. It goes against the whole of the message of the Scriptures.