Depression or Mystical Union?

[simple_soul]

Speaking from my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt, sometimes I beleive we spend to much time and energy dwelling on what is or is not a Dark Night or Mystcal Union that we actually hinder our prayer life. I never gave my relationship with God a second thought really. Just always accepted that I had one and tried to nurture it as best as I could. When I came to CAF and started to read threads like this one and others at first it was kind of cool and humbling but then doubt, worry and over analizing stepped in and everything got really confusing and started to eat away at my inner peace and so I let it go. I beleive sometimes we get so caught up in what point we are in in our spiritual journey that the journey it’s self becomes our focuse instead of our relationship with God. I beleive that is what happened to me. It was like I became so focused on what I was experiencing that it was hindering me from just accepting it and living life to the fullest. So now I just pray and do the best that I can with who and what I am and just try trusting God will keep leading me into Himself. I have found great peace in that. It’s like I don’t have time anymore and will leave the analyzing, categorizing and labeling for others to figure out. I just hope and pray that this is an ok way to be. If not I am sure God in His own time will let me know…

 

[DBT]

Speaking from my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt, sometimes I beleive we spend to much time and energy dwelling on what is or is not a Dark Night or Mystcal Union that we actually hinder our prayer life. I never gave my relationship with God a second thought really. Just always accepted that I had one and tried to nurture it as best as I could. When I came to CAF and started to read threads like this one and others at first it was kind of cool and humbling but then doubt, worry and over analizing stepped in and everything got really confusing and started to eat away at my inner peace and so I let it go. I beleive sometimes we get so caught up in what point we are in in our spiritual journey that the journey it’s self becomes our focuse instead of our relationship with God. I beleive that is what happened to me. It was like I became so focused on what I was experiencing that it was hindering me from just accepting it and living life to the fullest. So now I just pray and do the best that I can with who and what I am and just try trusting God will keep leading me into Himself. I have found great peace in that. It’s like I don’t have time anymore and will leave the analyzing, categorizing and labeling for others to figure out. I just hope and pray that this is an ok way to be. If not I am sure God in His own time will let me know…

Much wisdom here!

And, incidently, this is the type of attitude one would expect from someone going through passive trials like the Dark Night.

Dave

 

[StudentMI]

I really don’t think threads like these help when they cast a disparaging light on psychiatry and medication. Clinical depression is a real illness and left untreated can lead to the sufferer inflicting physical harm on themselves, up to and including suicide. It’s not mystical union. God doesn’t give someone a cross they can’t bear, and if you’ve ever seen someone with clinical depression you’d know they can’t bear it. A priest once told me, God doesn’t like making people miserable, and just because someone has a cross doesn’t mean they can’t seek help for it.

There is nothing in Church doctrine that is against psychiatry and medication for clinical depression and related illnesses.

 

[InLight247]

I really don’t think threads like these help when they cast a disparaging light on psychiatry and medication. Clinical depression is a real illness and left untreated can lead to the sufferer inflicting physical harm on themselves, up to and including suicide. It’s not mystical union. God doesn’t give someone a cross they can’t bear, and if you’ve ever seen someone with clinical depression you’d know they can’t bear it. A priest once told me, God doesn’t like making people miserable, and just because someone has a cross doesn’t mean they can’t seek help for it.

There is nothing in Church doctrine that is against psychiatry and medication for clinical depression and related illnesses.

Agree. God is a good God. God will never send an illness and call it a mystical union. Mixing an illness with mystical union is to call evil good. I see a dangerous flag there.

Speaking from my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt, sometimes I beleive we spend to much time and energy dwelling on what is or is not a Dark Night or Mystcal Union that we actually hinder our prayer life. I never gave my relationship with God a second thought really. Just always accepted that I had one and tried to nurture it as best as I could. When I came to CAF and started to read threads like this one and others at first it was kind of cool and humbling but then doubt, worry and over analizing stepped in and everything got really confusing and started to eat away at my inner peace and so I let it go. I beleive sometimes we get so caught up in what point we are in in our spiritual journey that the journey it’s self becomes our focuse instead of our relationship with God. I beleive that is what happened to me. It was like I became so focused on what I was experiencing that it was hindering me from just accepting it and living life to the fullest. So now I just pray and do the best that I can with who and what I am and just try trusting God will keep leading me into Himself. I have found great peace in that. It’s like I don’t have time anymore and will leave the analyzing, categorizing and labeling for others to figure out. I just hope and pray that this is an ok way to be. If not I am sure God in His own time will let me know…

Personally I am interested in reading classic writings to do with contemplation and union, as well as good contemporary books such as Father Dubay’s Fire Within, Ralph Martin’s* The Fulfillment of all Desire*, Father Thomas Green’s When the Well Runs Dry, Experiencing God, etc. They are all helpful for spirituality. Some good threads on CAF also contain valued knowledge and experience for us to learn.

It is good to have an idea where we are on the spiritual journey. Gaining knowledge about what is, and what is not, does not mean over analyzing. Reading books about prayers does not necessarily mean to be caught up in the reading itself and ignoring prayer. I agree with you that our focus should always be on our relationship with God and on our prayers. Our attention should never be diverted by anything else.

The problem of a public forum is that it is public. Anyone is free to read anything and post anything within the forum’s rules. Some contents can definitely cause confusion for the readers, especially for those have no actual experience on the topic. Some topics may be initiated by someone who himself is confused and thus also bring confusions to other readers. Unfortunately no one can prevent such things happen. That’s when some posts of clarification could be helpful.

We need to choose what to read, and how to read them. That is probably the reason the author of the Cloud of Unknowing told his readers in the very beginning not to share his book with anyone who do not fit to read it.

 

[Lady_Love]

God is a good God. God will never send an illness and call it a mystical union.

I’m just curious, have you ever read “Divine Mercy?” Have you ever read the “Story of a Soul?” Have you ever read the lives of any of the Catholic Mystics? Because they are always suffering from physical, mental, and spiritual ailments, often treated by doctors to no avail but they have a spiritual meaning and purpose. Some like Faustina go in and out of illnesses constantly and some like St. Therese never do. Maybe all illnesses are redemptive suffering, EXCEPT depression? One of Mother Teresa’s ministries was teaching “redemptive suffering” to the sick and dying. Is depression an exception?

 

[InLight247]

Yes, I have read Divine Mercy, that is one of my favorite books. I have read The Story of a Soul, multiple times to the point I almost know every detail. I have read lives of other mystics also.

Suffering has redemptive meaning but it is different than calling depression mystic union.

 

[Lady_Love]

It is good to have an idea where we are on the spiritual journey. Gaining knowledge about what is, and what is not, does not mean over analyzing. Reading books about prayers does not necessarily mean to be caught up in the reading itself and ignoring prayer. I agree with you that our focus should always be on our relationship with God and on our prayers. Our attention should never be diverted by anything else.

These are my thoughts exactly! In which I expressed in another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=787160

But my concern is for those suffering depression. I believe that God allows all things only for our benefit and if someone is suffering depression God has allowed it because He plans on using it as a tool for spiritual growth. Maybe it’s an illness, maybe it’s not, it doesn’t really matter, God is using it as a tool for conversion and a deepening of relationship.

In revelation God speaks of making one sick to bring forth repentance. “Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works.” Revelation 2:22

For those who need to repent, it may be a tool for repentance and if someone who has no sin to be repented of then maybe they are called to “redemptive suffering for others.” Either way depression can be redemptive.

 

[DBT]

I’m just curious, have you ever read “Divine Mercy?” Have you ever read the “Story of a Soul?” Have you ever read the lives of any of the Catholic Mystics? Because they are always suffering from physical, mental, and spiritual ailments, often treated by doctors to no avail but they have a spiritual meaning and purpose. Some like Faustina go in and out of illnesses constantly and some like St. Therese never do. Maybe all illnesses are redemptive suffering, EXCEPT depression? One of Mother Teresa’s ministries was teaching “redemptive suffering” to the sick and dying. Is depression an exception?

Certainly many of the mystics suffered all sorts of physical ailments and this suffering was part of their passive night. And sometimes the cure (medically speaking) was worse than the disease. But again, imo, this is a very confused statement … a conflating of the natural with the supernatural … of how and why things happen in the soul.

Go back and read your original post in light of what people have been saying. The proper recourse for (some) with illnesses - be they physical or emotional - is simply to pray for others?

Seriously?

And one other thing: the passive night of spirit (St. John’s Dark Night) is a matter of personal purification… it is not redemptive in the manner you seem to be implying. Some theolgians speculate to a reparative night - a second passive night of spirit occuring only in those already brought to transforming union - that does have this redemptive characteristic. St. Therese’s trial of faith and Mother Teresa are sometimes cited as examples.

But if the passive night of spirit is very rare, then this reparative night is exceedingly so. And sound direction for individuals in either camp wouldn’t deny the role of proper medical treatment in any case.

Lastly, the vast majority of those enduring depression (just my opinion, nothing more) simply do not see things in a spiritual light … so none of this would apply to them anyway. The proper recourse for them is purely medical.

Dave

 

[InLight247]

Lastly, the vast majority of those enduring depression (just my opinion, nothing more) simply do not see things in a spiritual light … so none of this would apply to them anyway. The proper recourse for them is purely medical.
Dave

That is what I think too.

To Lady Love:

Many saints suffered their physically illness due to the way they lived, how they took care of themselves, and the environment they were in. Medicine was not advanced years ago. Tuberculosis had no cure. It was not that God purposely sent tuberculosis to St. Faustina and St. Therese. They unfortunately caught the disease as the consequence of their environment and their own physical conditions. They lived in a time with no cure of that disease, and God did not give a miracle to heal them. God usually does not interfere his own natural law (if you live with a leper, chances are you will catch leprosy) with his supernatural law (miraculously heal the leprosy). That is how we say God allows the illness.

For the saints who are spiritually mature and have a true relationship with God, they make the ultimate good out of the bad by suffering their misfortunes well. That is God’s grace. When they offer their pains up and bear the cross for the love of the Lord and neighbors, they give their suffering a redemptive meaning. That is redemptive suffering.

Whereas misusing the term of “mystical union” to throw it on clinical depression and insisting simply to pray for others is not only incorrect and misleading but dangerous. We should be very careful not to insist our own speculation on a public forum to cause confusions.

Again I recommend you to seek spiritual direction.

 

[DBT]

Maybe an amusing little story might help …

From time-to-time the topic of mystical union comes up in Carmel community … though infrequently because most are loath to probe to deeply into personal experience.

Anyhoo, what seems to capture peoples imagination is mystical union not so much from the point of view of the substance of the soul (as in this thread); rather the union of the faculties in the form of the prayer of quiet, union etc. Invariably what comes up in discussion are St. Teresa’s illustrations of the sisters in her convents who wandered around for days at a time in a trance like state thinking themselves in rapture or ecstacy. This flies in the face of what St. Teresa teaches (and true experience shows) that contemplative absorptions are very brief and fleeting in nature.

What St. Teresa noticed was that there was nothing mystical at all about these sisters and no good works were flowing forth from their experiences. What was happening was this: they weren’t eating … or sleeping … and took on excessive penances often in contridiction to orders. In other words, they were debilitated as mentioned in this thread. On top of it all, they thought they were redeeming mankind by undertaking these sufferings of their own accord.

St. Teresa, upon noticing, put a stop to things immediately. Her advice … and I paraphrase … “Knock it off right now and go eat a sandwich!!!”

The moral of the story: Sts Teresa and John were immensely practical people with great insight into the human condition. And they would never ascribe to the supernatural what was so manifestly natural. You can find examples like this in many, many places in their writings. And those who persisted were harshly condemend by both as the false mystics they were.

And on another note:

Let’s look to the example of St. Therese of Liseaux. True, she underwent severe physical suffering in her last days … essentially slowly suffocating to death. And we know too she was enduring severe interior trials. But - and this is the important point - her physical sufferings were not her night … they were coincidental to it. Rather her night … as all nights are … was purely spiritual. In her case, the voice of sinners mocking her that there is no heaven and death only brings eternal nothingness. This was her trial of faith.

Much the same can be said of St. Teresa … who suffered intensely from a physical point of view. But, in what is typical, she largely looked past these sufferings as the spiritual is all that mattered.

Long story short:

Sense and spirit … the natural and supernatural. We are beings that incorporate both elements … with ailments specific to both. It is important to diagnose correctly and seek remedies appropriate to our actual condition.

Dave

 

[simple_soul]

These are my thoughts exactly! In which I expressed in another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=787160

But my concern is for those suffering depression. I believe that God allows all things only for our benefit and if someone is suffering depression God has allowed it because He plans on using it as a tool for spiritual growth. Maybe it’s an illness, maybe it’s not, it doesn’t really matter, God is using it as a tool for conversion and a deepening of relationship.

In revelation God speaks of making one sick to bring forth repentance. “Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works.” Revelation 2:22

For those who need to repent, it may be a tool for repentance and if someone who has no sin to be repented of then maybe they are called to “redemptive suffering for others.” Either way depression can be redemptive.

Lady Love what you seem to be saying here is reminding of Psalm 50. Especially this line; “In sins my mother conceived me.” From what I understand of depression it is usually a result of another’s sins and ones own sins tend to compound it. What I beleive Inlight and DBT are trying to clarify is that depression is a result of sin. I beleive you are correct in saying God allows it because He does not interfere with our free will. So I beleive that those of us who do suffer from depression can offer it as redemptive suffering. This is not to say that we should not seek help for the depression through counseling and possible medications. Especially if one is trying to cause serious harm to self or others.

I beleive I can almost see what you are trying to say but not quite sure.
The difference I see, from reading this thread, between depression and a dark night is one caused from our sinfulness and the other is caused by God to cure our sinfulness and yes I tend to agree with you that through the suffering of depression for our sinfulness God can and will try to get us to turn to Him to find the reason for our sufferings. So I do see it as Him using depression to draw us closer to Himself. I have wondered so many times about people who suffer from depression and I have always asked myself this question. If they knew God and were able to understand how redemptive suffering works would they be more focused on Him and neighbor instead of just focusing on themselves.

Sorry to just throw this out like this. I know I do not really understand all of this or have any concret answers. These are just some thoughts of mine that seem to be formulating since this thread started. Anyway just some food for thought and I hope and pray I am not that far off base and I hope they make some sense.

 

[simple_soul]

Continued;

So I guess the next question would be, and I beleive this is what you are asking, if thos who suffer from depression knew God and how He takes us on a spiritual journey to Himself would depression then be a dark night instead of depression?

 

[Lady_Love]

From what I understand of depression it is usually a result of another’s sins and ones own sins tend to compound it. What I beleive Inlight and DBT are trying to clarify is that depression is a result of sin.

An example of this might be a repeatedly sexually abused child. The child will suffer from a matrix of depression, low-self worth, projections, memories, often dillusions, etc This person having been a totally innocent VICTIM of sin, now suffering the consequences within themselves for the sins that another inflicted on them. This person, the victim, is already living Christ on the cross and may be on this cross the rest of their life. They have an opportunity to turn all their struggles into redemptive suffering. They can find freedom, purpose, and meaning in all the events of their life, which up to this point would make no sense. These individuals are labeled with every mental illness under the sun, which compounds their already low-self worth, but in truth they have been given a FULL CHALICE of the sufferings of Jesus, a gift to know Jesus in a way that most will never know or understand.

Jesus was totally innocent and had the sensitivities of a child, even more sensitive than a child for He had absolutely NO sin, not even a sinful nature! Those who have suffered child abuse will be those who have experienced the closest thing to the trauma inflicted on Jesus during His life. And if there was anything that Jesus came to do for mankind, it was to give meaning, purpose, and hope to those who are suffering, even the irreversible suffering that comes with dying and the hopelessness that occurs in those who realize they will never get any better in this life.

I myself believe that the world is depressed because it should be! The mystical body of Christ is bearing the scourge of murdered babies, abuse, wars, starvation, poverty, loneliness, neglect, etc. etc. etc. Thomas Merton says, Perfect joy is impossible in this life, for how can one be perfectly joyful when even ONE other person is still suffering.

 

[DBT]

What a long strange trip this has been!

I’m leaving now as I can see my words have been twisted beyond all meaning.

I see very, very wounded souls here that need help … spiritual and medical. I pray for you.

I also see the grandiosity of the “I’m so advanced you couldn’t possibly understand” being passed off as mystical understanding. And true perversion of some of the most basic aspects of the Dark Night and Mystical Union is service of a personal speculation. Many times I have seen individuals so wrapped up and enthused with their own personal illumination that they fail to see the contridiction of their words to the mystical teachings they think support their case. And they risk misleading others into walking down false and potentially dangerous spiritual cul-de-sac in their zeal.

I’m not saying there aren’t some kernals of truth here … there are. But it’s muddled and, frankly, twisted. Sometimes those convinced they live in the inner chamber have yet to even enter the castle. So from time-to-time it’s good for all of us - myself included - to start over from the beginning.

Blessings and peace to all,
Dave

 

[DBT]

Perhaps I should be clear why all this upsets me so.

First, there very well may be victim souls among us. But that is a matter between God, the individual and their spiritual director … and it shouldn’t be a matter of internet speculation and high-fiving. And any individual who thinks they’re drawn this way needs to be very cautious regardless … as history shows this is a path that wanders close to heresy. St. Therese of Liseaux herself was quite fearful of those thinking themselves victims because they often worshipped a distorted view of the god of justice not the true God of mercy. Her oblation to merciful love single handedly put to rest several hundred years of deviant thought in the form of Jansenism. Sure these souls may be among us … but tred carefully.

Second, it is simply preposterous to me that people are given depression and/or have violent crimes committed against them for this express purpose. Victim souls ask for it … and few are granted the privilege. Who asks for clinical depression or sexual abuse? In the premise of this thread, free will is denied. True, all things - good or bad - can be means for redemption for ourselves and others. But that is an act of the will that is made after the fact. Before the fact thinking - in my mind at least - points to a distorted view of justice as punishment.

Third, as a Carmelite, it disturbs me to see the teaching of the Dark Night as the link that elevates clinical depression to mystical union. I might not be the most Scripture saavy among us but I don’t recall clinical depression ever listed among the gifts or fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Lastly, depression is no doubt a great, great suffering. But suffering in itself does not make a Dark Night … the basic flaw in the premise of this thread. Only those who embrace the spiritual aspect in all things and at all times have the potential for an external catalyst like depression to flower into the personal transformation born of the Dark Night. And as the mystics, Doctors and common sense show … very few among us fit that bill.

So no, depression in itself is not mystical union. And if you’re ill - physically or mentally - by all means see a doctor!!! It would be negligence to suggest otherwise.

Dave

 

[simple_soul]

What a long strange trip this has been!

I’m leaving now as I can see my words have been twisted beyond all meaning.

I see very, very wounded souls here that need help … spiritual and medical. I pray for you.

I also see the grandiosity of the “I’m so advanced you couldn’t possibly understand” being passed off as mystical understanding. And true perversion of some of the most basic aspects of the Dark Night and Mystical Union is service of a personal speculation. Many times I have seen individuals so wrapped up and enthused with their own personal illumination that they fail to see the contridiction of their words to the mystical teachings they think support their case. And they risk misleading others into walking down false and potentially dangerous spiritual cul-de-sac in their zeal.

Oh Dave… I am so so sorry if I have twisted what you were saying. I honestly thought I was understanding you.

Please also forgive me if I have been sharing my thoughts just to show off. Please, please understand this is not why I am doing this…but I will pray about it some more…who knows…maybe it is…it would not surprise me if I come to understand that it is…

I am not trying to twist God’s Justice around. Just trying to understand His Justice.
I understand His Justice to be Mercy. The kind of Mercy that knows no bounds. But I also know and understand we make our own hell if we do not follow His way and accept His Mercy for our sinfulness. He will not force me to accept His Mercy and Justice if I do not want it and I know He will leave me in my own hell if I choose to refuse His Love and Mercy.

Please forgive me for taking things you have said here in this thread and twisted them into something else. Again I honestly thought this was what you were saying. Sorry I miss-understood you.

Peace and blessing to you too

 

[DBT]

Simple Soul … please be at peace!!!

My comments are not directed to you at all!

Many Blessings,
Dave

 

[simple_soul]

Simple Soul … please be at peace!!!

My comments are not directed to you at all!

Many Blessings,
Dave

Thank you but now I am even more confused and I feel like a 747 just flew over my head.

Anyway can I ask, exactly what is Jansenism?

Maybe a good question for another thread.

 

[billcu1]

Lady_Love:
It is good to have an idea where we are on the spiritual journey. Gaining knowledge about what is, and what is not, does not mean over analyzing. Reading books about prayers does not necessarily mean to be caught up in the reading itself and ignoring prayer. I agree with you that our focus should always be on our relationship with God and on our prayers. Our attention should never be diverted by anything else.

These are my thoughts exactly! In which I expressed in another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=787160

But my concern is for those suffering depression. I believe that God allows all things only for our benefit and if someone is suffering depression God has allowed it because He plans on using it as a tool for spiritual growth. Maybe it’s an illness, maybe it’s not, it doesn’t really matter, God is using it as a tool for conversion and a deepening of relationship.

In revelation God speaks of making one sick to bring forth repentance. “Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works.” Revelation 2:22

For those who need to repent, it may be a tool for repentance and if someone who has no sin to be repented of then maybe they are called to “redemptive suffering for others.” Either way depression can be redemptive.

I looked at Rev. 2:22 and it says “Behold I will cast her into a bed…” Or the like. Of course I was looking at the KJV and talking to a protestant. What bible is the from ? NAB?
Is this talking about the whore Babylon?

 

[DBT]

Anyway can I ask, exactly what is Jansenism?

Well, at the risk of diverting this thread …

Jansenism was many, many things and hard to capture in a few quick sentences. Here’s a blurb from the intro of Story of A Soul:
Story of a Soul:

There reigned in the Martin family a solid faith that saw God in all life’s events, paying Him a permanent homage: family prayers together, morning attendance at Mass, frequent reception of the Holy Communion - rare in an epoch when Jansenism continued its ravages.

In a nutshell, Jansensim was a disordered fear of God that led people to do the opposite of each of the points mentioned in the quote. God was not seen in a merciful way; rather he brought punishment and made bad things happen. The victim souls of her day were somtimes caught up in that thinking … taking on the burdens of others to alleviate God’s wrath. Therese turned all of that thinking on it’s head … by becoming an oblation to God’s love. She would not be a victim in the sense of those of her day. We take for granted today the viewpoint of a merciful God … largely due to the impact of St. Therese. It is hard to state, though, the radical shock her words must have had on the readers of her time who were presented with a seemingly entirely new God.

I apologize, though, for this sidetrack!

My point to this thread: God does not make bad things happen to extract a price from us. And that’s precisely what I think 99.9% of people would think if presented with the notion that their clinical depression or sexual abuse was given for the express purpose that they pray for others. It would drive people away from God out of fear rather than cause them to rush into His open arms. And they would feel their love is being coerced when we all know it must be freely given.