Depression or the Dark Night?

[annie17on12]

Hello,
I have started to wonder about several things in my spiritual life lately which have consequently lead me to question if I am experiencing depression or the dark night of the soul.
First off, I experience emotional numbness on a daily basis. I honestly find it hard to react with joy or sorrow at events in my life or in others’ lives. Furthermore, I don’t feel anything after making a good confession. Nothing. I also find it hard to feel love for others. I know in my head that I love them but I have a hard time feeling it. I am so confused though because I have had some spiritual experiences that make me think that I could be experiencing the dark knight… how can I tell the difference?

My first thought is automatically to conclude that I must be suffering from depression but I haven’t gone to a spiritual director or a doctor about these things yet so I am unsure what to conclude. .

 

[Robert_Sock]

My sense is that all depression can be transformed into the dark night. Transform every moment into a righteous sacrifice that is acceptable to God. I too suffer greatly from major depression, but then there are moments that I’m overwhelmed with a higher-ordered spiritual LOVE which causes me to believe in the dark night.

Which is exactly what John of the Cross is saying: learn to be at home in the darkness, do not run away from it, do not fight it or even try to understand it, embrace it -‘the night has eyes’. A new and different world is being born, what seem to be death pangs are in fact birth pangs, the soul in darkness is being renewed and transfigured; a new and [wonderful] beauty is born. Painful though it may be, there is in fact no other way except the way of trust and surrender, and ultimately of belief in the creative and transforming power of love. John’s invitation to accept ‘the dark ray of contemplation’ may not be easy, but there is no other way.
-Eugene McCaffrey, OCD

LOVE!

 

[thegreypiper]

I’m neither doctor nor spiritual director, but “emotional numbness” sounds more like depression to me. I think you should be consulting with someone face to face, not poking around on boards.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Do not utter a word, or even think a single thought, but just allow your soul to have a loving thirst for God.

LOVE!

 

[Robert_Sock]

PSALM 42
1 For the leader. A maskil of the Korahites.
2 As the deer longs for streams of water,
so my soul longs for you, O God.
3 My soul thirsts for God, the living God.
When can I enter and see the face of God?
4 My tears have been my bread day and night,
as they ask me every day, “Where is your God?”
5 Those times I recall
as I pour out my soul,
When I would cross over to the shrine of the Mighty One,
to the house of God,
Amid loud cries of thanksgiving,
with the multitude keeping festival.
6 Why are you downcast, my soul;
why do you groan within me?
Wait for God, for I shall again praise him,
my savior and my God.
7 My soul is downcast within me;
therefore I remember you
From the land of the Jordan and Hermon,
from Mount Mizar,
8 Deep calls to deep
in the roar of your torrents,
and all your waves and breakers
sweep over me.
9 By day may the LORD send his mercy,
and by night may his righteousness be with me!
I will pray to the God of my life,
10 I will say to God, my rock:
“Why do you forget me?
Why must I go about mourning
with the enemy oppressing me?”
11 It shatters my bones, when my adversaries reproach me,
when they say to me every day: “Where is your God?”
12 Why are you downcast, my soul,
why do you groan within me?
Wait for God, for I shall again praise him,
my savior and my God.

LOVE!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

That is a profound questions, Annie. I think a lot of things need to be considered like personal history, other health issues, and life situation.

 

[SighGuy]

It’s hard to say, Annie. We don’t really know you, and even the things we try to type often do not carry along the full truth with them (because of subconscious reasoning!) Does your parish priest know you very well? Or, is there someone who does, friend or family? Why don’t you talk to them and tell them the same thing you told us. Even read it off to them.

It might be that you really do have depression, or it might not be. But it’s worth seeing. I don’t think clinical depression is one of those things that you can really just get over by yourself… no more than just “getting over” a heart attack by yourself, or bronchitis!

 

[annie17on12]

I think that I wrote the question in a weird way. I apologize. I was wondering if the dark night in general can be confused with depression or if they are markedly different from each other. Or if one has depression, how could it be told apart from the dark night?

 

[GEddie]

I think that I wrote the question in a weird way. I apologize. I was wondering if the dark night in general can be confused with depression or if they are markedly different from each other. Or if one has depression, how could it be told apart from the dark night?

It may not matter that much.

Only a doctor can diagnose depression; only a spiritual director or advisor can diagnose the DNS (because medicine deals with the human body, and “the soul” is not part of of the body).

So unless you have a spiritual advisor who is also a doctor (very rare), it would take you some time to tell them apart.

It may or may not be true, as RS has said, that depression can become the DNS. Not everybody gets the full-on DNS.

And it is also possible that some saintly depressives, in premodern times, thought they had DNS, or that modern people fighting depression may in fact have DNS. It may not matter because either represents a hard spiritual trial. (Your soul cannot live life fully from an afflicted head.)

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[annie17on12]

It may not matter that much.

Only a doctor can diagnose depression; only a spiritual director or advisor can diagnose the DNS (because medicine deals with the human body, and “the soul” is not part of of the body).

So unless you have a spiritual advisor who is also a doctor (very rare), it would take you some time to tell them apart.

It may or may not be true, as RS has said, that depression can become the DNS. Not everybody gets the full-on DNS.

And it is also possible that some saintly depressives, in premodern times, thought they had DNS, or that modern people fighting depression may in fact have DNS. It may not matter because either represents a hard spiritual trial. (Your soul cannot live life fully from an afflicted head.)

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

Okay! Now I understand… this clears things up. Thank you.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Psychiatrists and psychologists do not diagnose spiritual conditions and spiritual directors do not (ought not) diagnose mental disorders.

LOVE!

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

The dark night of the senses doesn’t occur until someone has actively purified all of their senses and then requires God to take over purifying the soul. My spiritual director says very few people these days actually makes it this far in the Spiritual Life since most people can’t stop committing mortal sins, which is required just to enter the very beginning of the spiritual life.

You should go to the doctor. Any number of medical conditions can make you exhibit symptoms that you describe. For me, I was diagnosed with an emergency case of hyperthyroidism that I had been suffering from for several years that I didn’t notice until my body started to eat away at itself.

 

[asia53]

The dark night of the senses doesn’t occur until someone has actively purified all of their senses and then requires God to take over purifying the soul.

This past weekend, I attended my Lay Carmelite Community Retreat. Our lecturer, Father David, Carmelite priest, and expert on St John of the Cross, said the above; almost word for word.

He added one additional thing: The Dark Night is never frightening, scary, or depressing. It is simply obscure.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This past weekend, I attended my Lay Carmelite Community Retreat. Our lecturer, Father David, Carmelite priest, and expert on St John of the Cross, said the above; almost word for word.

He added one additional thing: The Dark Night is never frightening, scary, or depressing. It is simply obscure.

The ‘forced’ transition from worldly pleasures must seem depressing, I would think. Unless heavenly pleasures happen prior to the renunciation of things worldly, there must be a period of void which resembles depression.

LOVE!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

The ‘forced’ transition from worldly pleasures must seem depressing, I would think. Unless heavenly pleasures happen prior to the renunciation of things worldly, there must be a period of void which resembles depression.

LOVE!

I may be wrong but the more I read of John and the Dark Night the more joyous it seems rather than depressive. Of course, it is not a joy of the senses nor the intellect, but something deeper.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I don’t have a lot to add to this except to say that I appreciate the posts that point out that we really do need to have the spiritual purification first before even wondering if it’s the Dark Night. I’ve had backsliding of prayer life and devotion. I have also had depression and burnout especially in the past decade or so. Sometimes it’s so hard to fight the depression and regain the guts and desire to get back on track with the purgative way (especially when at one time in my life I was thinking I might even be getting ready to embark on the illuminative way).

One thing that scares me right now is that I feel burned out on other people’s problems and wanting to stay in my shell more and more - but knowing that’s not the path of charity, I am torn. Today’s Gospel at Mass for instance - I hear the first part about loving God and that sounds great. Then I hear the second part about loving neighbor and boom! uch: I realize that to love God without loving neighbor is self-contradictory. It’s not that I don’t care at all - but I don’t want to get closely involved in complicated situations, and when I hear bad news on top of bad news, it’s hard for me to stop fretting.I turn it over to God and get some peace and assurance, then someone tells me some more bad stuff and I get obsessed again and want to pull away from that person or people in general.

 

[DBT]

I may be wrong but the more I read of John and the Dark Night the more joyous it seems rather than depressive. Of course, it is not a joy of the senses nor the intellect, but something deeper.

You’re not wrong at all …

For those interested, the chapter titled “Fire in the Nights” from Fr. Dubay’s book “Fire Within” discusses at some length how depression differs greatly from the Dark Night. Superficial similarity is the cause of much mis-diagnosis. And the fact that depression sometimes coincides with the dark night … making it difficult to sort out what is what.

Bottom-line: the dark night in no way debilitates an individual. While they may be in deep spiritual anguish, they are fully functioning in all other aspects of their life … flourishing even. And only a very trained eye could even tell anything out of the ordinary was going on. And yes, there is a deep joy in the midst of the suffering. And what is the purpose of this suffering? To purge imperfections and foster growth in virtue. As Father describes, “mental/emotional problems do not of themselves” produce this effect.

Dave

 

[Robert_Sock]

I may be wrong but the more I read of John and the Dark Night the more joyous it seems rather than depressive. Of course, it is not a joy of the senses nor the intellect, but something deeper.

You have done more reading than I, and are probably more of an expert, but I’m going by quotes like the following (and my own current experiences), which suggests that the Dark Night is not pleasurable:

…which is exactly what John of the Cross is saying: learn to be at home in the darkness, do not run away from it, do not fight it or even try to understand it, embrace it -‘the night has eyes’. A new and different world is being born, what seem to be death pangs are in fact birth pangs, the soul in darkness is being renewed and transfigured; a new and [wonderful] beauty is born. Painful though it may be, there is in fact no other way except the way of trust and surrender, and ultimately of belief in the creative and transforming power of love. John’s invitation to accept ‘the dark ray of contemplation’ may not be easy, but there is no other way.
-Eugene McCaffrey, OCD (iniciativas.dominicos.org/kit_upload/file/blogs/iniciativas/contemplation_-_the_carmelite_tradition.pdf)

LOVE!

PS Do a Google search and you should easily see the many claims of it containing displeasure.

 

[DBT]

Joy and suffering are not mutually exclusive. Look to the examples of Teresa of Calcutta or Therese of Lisieux to see how radiant joy can coexist with profound darkness and suffering.

If we read St. John closely we can see how one’s attitude evolves as they travel through the dark night. In the beginning they are “wearied, tormented, defiled” by it, to use his words. The accent is on the suffering … how it makes us feel. As we embrace suffering, though, things change as our focus is more on the transformative work God is doing in us and the infinite mercy He shows. Our focus is now on Him rather than us. The purifying aspect of the dark night is doing it’s work. We then enter what St. John calls the “serene” night … where true joy in suffering can be found.

We can see this shift, for example, in St. Teresa of Avila’s “Spiritual Testimonies.” When writing of her spiritual state in 1560 (while in her dark night) we can see all sorts of human emotions jump out in her explanations … irritation, inability to relate to people, exasperation with her state and so on. All in all a kind of holy complaining. Two years later, however, when describing the exact same spiritual circumstances what we see in her explanations are light, peace, acceptance, the virtues she’s gained through it all. In short, the lived reality of “my yoke is easy and burden is light.” The same dark night … but with a radically different experience of it.

At no time, though, do these writers use the word “depressed” to describe the experience. Suffering yes … depression no.

Dave

 

[Robert_Sock]

Joy and suffering are not mutually exclusive. Look to the examples of Teresa of Calcutta or Therese of Lisieux to see how radiant joy can coexist with profound darkness and suffering.

If we read St. John closely we can see how one’s attitude evolves as they travel through the dark night. In the beginning they are “wearied, tormented, defiled” by it, to use his words. The accent is on the suffering … how it makes us feel. As we embrace suffering, though, things change as our focus is more on the transformative work God is doing in us and the infinite mercy He shows. Our focus is now on Him rather than us. The purifying aspect of the dark night is doing it’s work. We then enter what St. John calls the “serene” night … where true joy in suffering can be found.

We can see this shift, for example, in St. Teresa of Avila’s “Spiritual Testimonies.” When writing of her spiritual state in 1560 (while in her dark night) we can see all sorts of human emotions jump out in her explanations … irritation, inability to relate to people, exasperation with her state and so on. Two years later, however, when describing the exact same spiritual circumstances what we see in her explanations are light, peace, acceptance … the lived reality of “my yoke is easy and burden is light.” The same dark night … but with a radically different experience of it.

At no time, though, do these writers use the word “depressed” to describe the experience. Suffering yes … depression no.

Dave

Yes, I agree entirely that suffering and joy can be experienced simultaneously. Indeed, I feel deep despair in respect to the exile of my soul here in this world, but at the same time experience great joy contemplating the Hereafter.

My own reasoning and experiences here, I believe that being weaned from worldly pleasures, which I think is a prerequisite for Divine union, entails a depression (or maybe pseudo-depression is the better term.)

LOVE!