Deprivation from Tradition

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YoungApologist3

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I didn’t want to take over a separate thread, so I’ve decided to make this one.

I much prefer the traditional music. However, until the past year or so, I was deprived of such music 99 percent of the time. I loved the contemporary songs; I was even in the LifeTeen choir at my church. I also took part in things during the Mass that I now know are wrong (not abuses, but incorrect nonetheless). Then, about three years ago, I experienced true traditional liturgy—High Mass in the Extraordinary Form with the whole nine yards: Gregorian chant, a very beautiful sanctuary, reverently said, etc. It affected me very much. Up until that point, I had no idea that such a thing even existed. After doing much research, prayer, and soul-searching, I came to the conclusion that what some call contemporary music was not suitable for Mass. I stopped singing in the contemporary choir, even though it broke my heart to do so. I was told by the choir director to read Sacrosanctum Concilium, but where advocates for contemporary music see the council allowing guitars, drums, etc., I see the council forbidding them. The council held Pius X in high esteem regarding sacred music, and when I read what he has to say about this topic, it became very clear to me what the council truly meant.

For me, traditional music was not a preference—in fact, I preferred contemporary music for a very long time. The reason I changed my mind and quit the contemporary choir was not for me. I only did it because I came to the conclusion (by reading the appropriate Church documents as well as interpretations of said Church documents, not from my own “revelation”) that the Mass music which is called “contemporary” does not honor God in the way traditional music honors God.

All of this is to say that many of today’s young Catholics are deprived of our Catholic Tradition—just like I was—and it is a real shame. I have yet to meet anyone whose parish has great Gregorian chant weekly who still prefers contemporary music in Mass, but this is the internet, so I’ll probably meet my first person now.
 
YoungApologist3 said:
All of this is to say that many of today’s young Catholics are deprived of our Catholic Tradition—just like I was—and it is a real shame.
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I’m glad you have decided you like to hear high Latin mass with gregorian chant, and you’re in a position to hear it.

But I lived during the Latin Mass era. I was just a kid of course, and didn’t have any say in the matter. The standard back then on Sunday morning was low mass. Outside of a funeral, most of my contemporaries never saw the “high” sung version of the liturgy.

I don’t know why this was- I was just a kid- but the people who lived through the age really didn’t care that much for gregorian
 
The current norms for music in the liturgy say that the Organ and Gregorian chant are to enjoy pride of place in the liturgy.
 
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I’m actually not in a position to hear it; I still regularly attend OF Mass. Next year, when—God willing—I enter seminary, I will attend it much more often, but that’s not even what this thread is meant to be about. It’s about the music. Until about a year ago (when the relatively new pastor of my new parish changed some things, including bringing back thr organ to weekly Mass), the only time I heard the organ at my normal parish was Easter or Christmas, and even then only for one song and maybe during Communion. Perhaps it was used at other Masses, but I never saw it. Now, I feel as if I was deprived of the tradition which belongs to all Roman rite Catholics.

Since you said that you didn’t care much for Gregorian chant, I have a hypothetical. How would you feel if you lived in a rural area and the only Mass you had access to switched to Gregorian Chant? (Assuming it was actually good.)
 
It’d be helpful to have definitions of “traditional” and “contemporary” here. Are you advocating for 100% Gregorian chant, and none of the familiar hymns that we know and love? Or do hymns like “All People that on Earth do Dwell” (16th Century) still have a place? What’s the cutoff exactly?
 
I’m not advocating for 100% Gregorian Chant. That was just meant as a hypothetical. (Though I would personally love to regularly attend Mass with just Gregorian Chant.) By traditional, I mean the types of hymns that were commonly seen before the Second Vatican Council. I don’t necessarily have a specific cutoff date, since new hymns can be composed in the style of old hymns. I’ve even heard a hymn put to the tune of Holst’s Jupiter, played on the organ, and I think it qualifies as traditional.
 
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YoungApologist3 said:
I’ve even heard a hymn put to the tune of Holst’s Jupiter , played on the organ, and I think it qualifies as traditional.
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‘O God Beyond All Praising’ is set to Jupiter, among several others. I have to admit that I’m unfamiliar with what kind of hymns they had pre-Vatican II. I would think many of the same ones we sing now? I attend a Cathedral with organ though, so the situation may be different at smaller parishes (“folk choirs” etc.).
 
That’s the one I was thinking of! I don’t think you get what I mean, though; perhaps I should define what I mean by contemporary. I mean the music by Matt Maher, David Crowder, etc. The music that is commonly played with guitar and drums, is based on modern secular music, and gets much of its appeal from the fact that it evokes the emotions.
 
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By the way, I don’t mean this to be an echo chamber. Comments from “the other side” are welcome. Let’s just not let this turn into a flame war.

To people from “the other side,” what are your thoughts on the fact that many people from my generation and younger haven’t experienced the long-standing musical Tradition of the Roman Rite?
 
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Even Latin High Masses don’t have Gregorian Chant as the only form of music. Very often there is polyphony and regular, traditional hymns.
 
Ok true. I’m a sucker for ‘In Christ Alone’ (2001). Beautiful.
 
I’m aware of that. I was just saying that’s what I personally would love to have.

I didn’t even get to experience either of those (polyphony or regular traditional hymns) until the last few years (except maybe when I was very little), and I’m a cradle Catholic.
 
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Neither Gregorian Chant nor polyphony (e.g. Palestrina) can be done well without a choir with professional or semi professional musicians (voices). They can be done minimally adequately with people with good voices (those who don’t need a lid on the washtub, in order to carry a note). And there is a significant dearth of trained musical directors, which any good to better choir requires.

Then (since you have noted you intend to enter seminary) there is the issue of what the parish prefers.

One of the primary ends of the changes to the Mass from Vatican 2 was active participation of the laity. And neither Palestrina nor Gregorian Chant are something the laity can sing. They can slaughter it, but sing it? No.

Which is not to say that on occasion a choir of more than minimal capability could sing a Mass; but in the real world. a choir capable of singing what you prefer is not going to survive with a Mass once a month. If there are visiting choirs, that might fulfill getting some of that music coordinated with a Mass; short of that, it is not going to happen. Perhaps in a parish with multiple Masses; and then possibly debatable.

It is nice that you have preferences there is nothing wrong with that in any way. The difficulty is that if you eventually are ordained, you may find that the parishes you are sent to have a long history before you get there, and going in and changing it to your liking will be an education about what happens when you impose your desires on the parish.

That is not to say you would have no (name removed by moderator)ut; only that you need to understand there is a difference between enthusiasm and wisdom.

And as a minor qualifier, in either 1965 or 1966 when I was in college minor seminary, I was part of a schola at the abbey where we cut a record of Gregorian Chant.

And about 15 or 20 years ago there was a parish which had a choir (all of whom sounded as if they had professional voice training) which sang a Palestrina Mass on Saturday evening. I would take those who had just joined the Church, during Mystagogy, to attend the Mass. The choir did it to perfection; and personally, I only attended so the “newbies” could get a taste of old choir music for Masses. My own personal opinion was they sang a beautiful concert; but I wanted to go to Mass, not a concert. I found it beyond distracting. Just MHO; some of the newbies each year loved it; some thought it was so so, and some definitely did not like it (and that was from comments over about 4 years of different newbies).
 
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Oh, I have no intention of imposing my personal preferences on others, so long as the alternative is in line with what Holy Mother Church requires. I’ve seen what rapid, seemingly pointless, changes which go against the will of the people can do to a parish. That’s one reason why I left my old parish, actually.

The point of all that I said is that I think that the council did not intend to add guitars and drums, etc., to Mass. Also, I am satisfied at my present parish, which doesn’t have Gregorian Chant or polyphony, but does have standard traditional hymns with organ accompaniment.
 
I think that some people are misunderstanding what I’m trying to say. I’m by no means advocating for only Gregorian chant in Mass. (Though I personally would love to attend a Mass with only Gregorian chant.) What I am advocating for is the return to tradition. What I have heard all my life, until a year or so ago, at Mass is “contemporary” music with guitars and drums, based on modern secular music, which gets its appeal mainly by evoking the emotions. I’ve even seen hand motions (!), and people clapping along to the music. Needless to say, these are not part of our Tradition in the Roman rite. That is what I’m advocating against.

EDIT: Alas, it is time for me to leave for the day. Good morning, afternoon, evening, and night to you, o dear internet reader.
 
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Gregorian chant at Mass (as well as the Latin Mass in general) is not something that most churches are in a position to have every week. It requires a significant degree of training, as well as people available who are willing to put in the time to get good at it. Furthermore, just because you found yourself really moved by it, it doesn’t mean that everybody, including every young person, is going to feel the same way. You have to be careful about not just assuming your experience applies to everybody else.

Having said that, I agree that young people should explore various Mass options in order to get a sense of the richness and dimensions of our faith and to see what they prefer in terms of Catholic practice, so that later in life they can make informed choices about where they want to live, what parish they want to join, etc. There are usually opportunities in each diocese to hear some Gregorian chant. You might find it at the cathedral, at a monastery, at a Traditional Latin Mass, at a concert sponsored by a church, or if all of that fails, on CDs or on recordings that stream online.

Instead of you complaining about young people being “deprived”, why not invite your friends or other young people you know to accompany you to one of these Masses with chant that you attend, or start a group to go regularly so other people can check it out? It’s likely that some of them will like it as much as you did; it’s also likely that some of them will find it boring or just not to their taste and prefer the contemporary stuff, which (as much as you might disagree) can be just as reverent if a heart is disposed to accept it in that spirit.

The Church right now is struggling with providing the sacraments, as in the Eucharist, confession, etc. to people with the limited resources it has, especially the limited number of priests. Making sure that every young person gets exposure to TLM and Gregorian chant is most definitely NOT the priority for the priests and bishops right now, nor should it be. The downside of all these discussions about music and externals is that it tends to miss the point that Jesus is present at all of these Masses and we would do well to focus on that, because over the course of one’s life it is likely that one will have to attend all kinds of Masses and your preferred type, whether it’s a TLM or a Youth Contemporary Mass with electric guitars, may not be available and you will be needing to carry on your relationship with Jesus even if the Mass music is the worst you’ve ever heard or the Mass building is the ugliest you’ve ever seen.
 
YoungApologist3 said:
All of this is to say that many of today’s young Catholics are deprived of our Catholic Tradition
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I think we have to be careful… the music and forms of the liturgy. These are small ‘t’ traditions meaning that these things can and do reform over time and always have. Essentials of the faith… things like the incarnation, resurrection, virgin birth, ascension, Assumption, etc…are large ‘T’ tradition or Divine Traditon which is irreformable.

I am happy that you have found a style of ritual that you find preferable. I wouldn’t, however, agree they anyone is being deprived of Catholic Tradition… as the Catholic tradition is alive in every Catholic parish regardless of the form of the Mass prayed, music played or otherwise.

Pax
 
YoungApologist3 said:
I have yet to meet anyone whose parish has great Gregorian chant weekly who still prefers contemporary music in Mass, but this is the internet, so I’ll probably meet my first person now.
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Except that “form over function” never quite does a justice to the faith…beauty, pageantry, ritual does not make up for not living the gospel message…hate to be graphic, but its kinda like the proverbial, “putting lipstick on a pig”.
 
Greetings YoungApologist,

You have made some very good points. I do think, however, that we need to recognize that both Gregorian Chant and the concept of modern music in liturgy both have a place within the tradition of the Church and each have a history which stretches back to the ancient Church. They simply occupied separate spheres of the Church’s life and Vatican II (and Trent, if you look at the documents) tried to bring both spheres together to allow for a more unified spiritual action.

Gregorian Chant has its roots long before Gregory. The chant is a remnant of the chant of the psalms and scriptures in the Temple and synagogues of the 1st century Jews. When the Temple was destroyed, Jews halted these songs in their places of worship in mourning, but the Christians continued this Tradition within their own liturgies. Gregorian Chant was simply the West’s evolution of this ancient chant whereas the East developed Byzantine Chant. This Chant was the basis for liturgy preserved in the monasteries during the Dark Ages and brought back into public liturgy by Pope Gregory I, a former monk.

So too, has contemporary and cultural music always been a part of the Church’s worship. We may think it odd in some western cultures today, but the Mass was only one small part of the liturgical action in the daily life the Church. Festivals, processions, penitential rites, blessings, marriage celebrations and everything in between were weekly, if not daily occurrences in the history of the Church. Most of these local Churches encouraged cultural and contemporary music at these celebrations to promote devotion through the common people who did not understand the Latin of the Mass. The most prominent example of this I can think of was St. Francis of Assisi who sang and danced around Assisi with a version of a tambourine begging and praising God. It was only during the Avignon Papacy that contemporary and modern music became suspect when the Avignon court totally discarded Gregorian Chant in their liturgies and replaced it with the (then) new form of music, polyphony. It was then that the music at Mass was the easiest way for the Catholic to determine which Pope (or Anti-Pope) that specific Church followed.

While Gregorian Chant was instituted and formalized for High Mass at Trent, the Council Fathers also formally gave allowances for modern instruments to also be used in Low Mass and liturgical actions outside of Mass. It was then that the Organ was officially accepted as a legitimate instrument to be used in Mass, as it was the Organ which gave rise to the polyphony used in Avignon Masses.

Vatican II was simply continuing concept of Trent by doing away with the distinction between the musical restrictions with regards to the two masses (mainly because they did away with the distinction between the masses themselves).

God Bless,
Br. Ben, CRM
 
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