Derailed: Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue

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When we read the Lutheran Confessions, we note that Lutherans haven’t outright denied the power of the sacraments or limited the number; only that Lutherans refocus the sacraments back to Christ, rather than human actions. The Confessions simply use a slightly different definition. A Sacrament, to us, is something that is 1)instituted by Christ 2)for the forgiveness of sins and gifting of Grace and 3)uses a visible element. Most Lutherans number Baptism and Holy Communion here, and many include Holy Absolution. Marriage, Ordination, Last Rites and Confirmation are still a part of our church, and can still be considered to deepen the Grace received at Baptism - in other words, that we don’t call it a sacrament doesn’t mean we necessarily think any less of these good and holy rites of the church or their necessity in Christian life - they do bring the Word to His people, after all.

The numbering of Sacraments would not be a barrier to reunification, in my understanding. The difficulty would come rather in the idea that the sacraments must be understood via some sort of interdependent sacramental theology. This is foreign to Lutheranism, where we approach each sacrament on its own terms and in its individual context.
 
Neither. Individuals will make the determination to either remain Lutheran or join the Catholic or Orthodox communions. The Synods will remain where they are.
But in a way that sounds selfish don’t you think? Where people in the higher ups, don’t want to see the truth, especially that being 1 helps us Christians send a stronger message to the world. Instead of having 44,000 or whatever the number of Christian Churches.
 
pravoslavie.ru/english/72128.htm

The outcome of the dialogue in Tallinn was sobering, as it is difficult to come closer on substantive issues. The question of women’s ordination is regarded as church-dividing, at least from the Orthodox angle . . .

Consequently I think we on the Lutheran side have to think about whether progress in dialogue is to be expected at all.” These sobering reflections come from Rev. Dr. Jennifer Wasmuth, a participant in the Joint Commission for theological dialogue between the Lutheran World Federation (LWF) and the Orthodox Church, following recent discussions in Estonia. The meeting, which took place May 8-13, focused on the question of women’s ordination.

These sobering reflections come from Rev. Dr. Jennifer Wasmuth, a participant in the Joint Commission for theological dialogue between the Lutheran World Federation (LWF) and the Orthodox Church, following recent discussions in Estonia. The meeting, which took place May 8-13, focused on the question of women’s ordination. If Wasmuth’s words above are anything to go by, it doesn’t sound like it was the most fruitful of discussions.

As Wasmuth explains, “The simple and crucial difference is that ordaining women is not recognized in Orthodox churches, while in most Lutheran churches it is not only recognized but already practiced.”

This is not exactly news—female ordination among churches of the Lutheran World Federation has been a perennial strain on ecumenical relations with the Orthodox (and Roman Catholics for that matter) for some time. The election of female bishops by some Lutherans has only exacerbated tensions. In 2010, for example, the election of a female bishop in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland prompted statements of concern from the nation’s Catholic and Orthodox leaders. “As a theological decision, it is a step away from efforts toward unity,” Archbishop Leo of the Finnish Orthodox Church noted.

Ayear earlier, the election of a woman as head bishop of the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) brought a quick rebuke from the Russian Orthodox Church. “We planned to celebrate the 50th anniversary of our dialogue with the Lutheran Church in Germany in late November or early December,” Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk noted at the time. “The 50th anniversary of the dialogue will become the end of it.” The EKD eventually canceled celebrations altogether when Metropolitan Hilarion decided not to attend.

Not long after that declaration, Metropolitan Hilarion summarized the problems at play in Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue in an interview with Der Spiegel. “Many Protestant churches have liberalized their notions of ethics, giving a theological justification to homosexuality and blessing same-sex couples,” he said. “Some refuse to consider abortion to be a sin. We do not share the understanding of the Church and church order, especially as the Protestants, unlike the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, ordain women.”

Likewise, a 2011 Inter-Orthodox evaluation of dialogue between the Orthodox and the LWF on the global level noted similar issues straining relations. “The ordination of women on all levels of clerical orders,” it wrote, “is a clear deviation from Christian practice,” as is “the emergence of a new moral-code concerning human sexuality and especially homosexual relations.” “In the eyes of most Orthodox,” the report continued, “these new ecclesiological and controversial anthropological innovations in the Lutheran world constitute radical challenges and serious obstacles to the Orthodox-Lutheran theological dialogue and to its original aim, namely, the promotion of mutual ecclesial rapprochement and, eventually, of Church unity.” While the report recognized much good had come from discussion with the LWF, it nevertheless concluded that issues like women’s ordination and innovative teachings on human sexuality “call into question the value of much that we have achieved in our dialogue.” “Lutherans should understand,” the report continues, “that these issues are major difficulties in our dialogue and may jeopardize its continuation and success.”

In other words, the major roadblocks to progress in Lutheran-Orthodox discussions are actually the hallmarks of liberal Protestantism—hallmarks of the theological direction that many churches of the Lutheran World Federation have taken. They are also, unsurprisingly, the same problems which have been frustrating Lutheran–Roman Catholic dialogue—something I’ve written about before. But as I wrote in that earlier post, it’s important to note that liberal Lutheranism isn’t the only game in town: There also exist confessional Lutheran churches like those of the International Lutheran Council (ILC)—churches which remain faithful to the Church’s historic teaching on the subjects of sexuality and female ordination. Consequently, just as Roman Catholics and ILC Lutherans have begun looking to each other for closer relations, it may well be that in the future Orthodox Christians find closer agreement with confessional Lutherans than with the LWF.

*Mathew Block is editor of The Canadian Lutheran magazine and communications manager for Lutheran Church–Canada. He also serves as editor for the International Lutheran Council. He tweets@captainthin. The header image comes from a 1574 translation of the Augsburg Confession into Greek, which was sent to Patriarch Jeremias II of Constantinople. This was the first (albeit short-lived) Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue. In Greek, the title reads: “A Confession of the Orthodox Faith.” *

10 / July / 2014
The LWF is not in any place to get into any sort of talking position with either the Orthodox or the the Catholic Church, as long as they disagree so starkly with biblical sexuality and moral issues. There is not going to be anything more than “let’s play nice” type agreements.
 
Code:
it doesn’t sound like it was the most fruitful of discussions.
I am not so sure this is unfruitful, either. As much as I would like unity to occur, unity has to happen in the context of Truth

1 Cor 11:18-19
I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

What is happening is that it is becoming more and more clear that those who have departed from the Apostolic faith will continue to drift and fragment further, while those who are attempting to cling to the Apostolic faith will continue to build on our common foundation and work toward the Unity that Christ desires.
 
If is extremely unlikely that Lutherans will seek unity with Orthodox considering the issue of female ordination. Lutherans continue to focus on the Gospel not the Law or some man made interpretation of what constitutes a man or woman servant of God. There is more important work for Christians than creating barriers by clinging to medieval notions of God’s Will.
 
I never suggested compromise. I agree.

I can’t help but wonder though if certain of their early excesses might have been lessened if they had seen their disagreements weren’t just limited to the Roman Church.
Yes, I wonder this often.
 
I am not so sure this is unfruitful, either. As much as I would like unity to occur, unity has to happen in the context of Truth

1 Cor 11:18-19
I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

What is happening is that it is becoming more and more clear that those who have departed from the Apostolic faith will continue to drift and fragment further, while those who are attempting to cling to the Apostolic faith will continue to build on our common foundation and work toward the Unity that Christ desires.
Amen! 👍
 
If is extremely unlikely that Lutherans will seek unity with Orthodox considering the issue of female ordination. Lutherans continue to focus on the Gospel not the Law or some man made interpretation of what constitutes a man or woman servant of God. There is more important work for Christians than creating barriers by clinging to medieval notions of God’s Will.
I agree, if you are speaking of LWF. Dialogue with ILC Lutherans may be more fruitful at this point.
 
If is extremely unlikely that Lutherans will seek unity with Orthodox considering the issue of female ordination. Lutherans continue to focus on the Gospel not the Law or some man made interpretation of what constitutes a man or woman servant of God. There is more important work for Christians than creating barriers by clinging to medieval notions of God’s Will.
Be clear, EC. You speak only for the liberal Lutherans here. Confessional Lutherans will remain steadfast in our teachings and can never “ordain” women. More importantly, we do not focus solely on the Gospel (or rather, appeal to a sort of Gospel Reductionism to support modern errors); no, we preach Law and Gospel in equal strength and with constant tension. One does not exist without the other.
 
**If is extremely unlikely that Lutherans will seek unity with Orthodox considering the issue of female ordination. ** Lutherans continue to focus on the Gospel not the Law or some man made interpretation of what constitutes a man or woman servant of God. There is more important work for Christians than creating barriers by clinging to medieval notions of God’s Will.
You realize, my friend, that the exact same issue applies to Pope Francis and the Catholic Church? Pope Francis is no more inclined to allow female ordination than the Orthodox. He isn’t allowed to.

There is no barrier on this issue, other than that set up by those communions and synods that choose to ordain women contrary to the historic teaching of the Church Catholic.

Jon
 
When we read the Lutheran Confessions, we note that Lutherans haven’t outright denied the power of the sacraments or limited the number; only that Lutherans refocus the sacraments back to Christ, rather than human actions. The Confessions simply use a slightly different definition. A Sacrament, to us, is something that is 1)instituted by Christ 2)for the forgiveness of sins and gifting of Grace and 3)uses a visible element. Most Lutherans number Baptism and Holy Communion here, and many include Holy Absolution. Marriage, Ordination, Last Rites and Confirmation are still a part of our church, and can still be considered to deepen the Grace received at Baptism - in other words, that we don’t call it a sacrament doesn’t mean we necessarily think any less of these good and holy rites of the church or their necessity in Christian life - they do bring the Word to His people, after all.

The numbering of Sacraments would not be a barrier to reunification, in my understanding. The difficulty would come rather in the idea that the sacraments must be understood via some sort of interdependent sacramental theology. This is foreign to Lutheranism, where we approach each sacrament on its own terms and in its individual context.
This is so well stated, Don. 👍

Jon
 
Be clear, EC. You speak only for the liberal Lutherans here. Confessional Lutherans will remain steadfast in our teachings and can never “ordain” women. More importantly, we do not focus solely on the Gospel (or rather, appeal to a sort of Gospel Reductionism to support modern errors); no, we preach Law and Gospel in equal strength and with constant tension. One does not exist without the other.
I think the fact that Confessional Lutherans have held to this Apostolic standard is one of the fruits whereby we know that the HS is at work in this communion. Those that are drifting into changed pressured by the culture are not held back by the Holy Spirit, so lose connection with the faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles.
 
I think the fact that Confessional Lutherans have held to this Apostolic standard is one of the fruits whereby we know that the HS is at work in this communion. Those that are drifting into changed pressured by the culture are not held back by the Holy Spirit, so lose connection with the faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles.
Unfortunately, the Lutheranism that holds to those ideals is, for all intents and purposes, non existent in America. Confessional Lutheranism is an extreme minority among even, ironically enough, the confessional church bodies much less the ELCA. I’m not at all confident that we have the means to hold back any kind of secularization or heresy. I am not convinced, though, at least on a theological level that the alternatives (Rome or Orthodoxy) are an improvement. Certainly an improvement on an institutional level, though.
 
You realize, my friend, that the exact same issue applies to Pope Francis and the Catholic Church? * Pope Francis is no more inclined to allow female ordination than the Orthodox. He isn’t allowed to.*There is no barrier on this issue, other than that set up by those communions and synods that choose to ordain women contrary to the historic teaching of the Church Catholic.

Jon
Just to add to what Jon stated…pronouncements by previous popes limits a current pope, or future pope, for that matter, on faith and morals. As St. JP II has detailed the CC response to the ordination of women (and according to then Cardinal Ratzinger, is almost an ex-cathedra statement), Pope Francis and future popes will not go against what JP II already said against the ordiniation of women.
 
If is extremely unlikely that Lutherans will seek unity with Orthodox considering the issue of female ordination. Lutherans continue to focus on the Gospel not the Law or some man made interpretation of what constitutes a man or woman servant of God. There is more important work for Christians than creating barriers by clinging to medieval notions of God’s Will.
Your last sentence sadly highlights the fallacy that much of the mainline seems to adhere to.

Because it is the old way of doing things it must be wrong. Because it is a new way of doing things it must be right.
 
Your last sentence sadly highlights the fallacy that much of the mainline seems to adhere to.

Because it is the old way of doing things it must be wrong. Because it is a new way of doing things it must be right.
:sad_yes:
 
If is extremely unlikely that Lutherans will seek unity with Orthodox considering the issue of female ordination.
Well, my first thought here is that you’re not really speaking for Lutherans in general here, just for the ELCA et al … But I see someone beat me to that already. 😊

But that aside, I actually greatly appreciate your saying ^^ this. So often in ecumenical dialogue one side’s message is “We want to unite it with you but you don’t want to unite with us. Why are you being so unecumenical?” or words to that effect (sigh). Thank you for a refreshing change. 🙂
 
So often in ecumenical dialogue one side’s message is “We want to unite it with you but you don’t want to unite with us. Why are you being so unecumenical?” or words to that effect (sigh).
That’s because most ecumenism consists of, “You know, we could heal all these schisms and divisions, if we can just agree that you were wrong.” :whistle:
 
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