Dereliction of duty: I'm a lousy parent

[Ceil-1]

Haskilee,

I sympathize with your experience. It is just this type of gossip that worries me about my son. Most families we are involved with are very conservative. Catching wind of this would, most assuredly, ruin his reputation. Being “shunned” by these people could very easily ruin his faith.

We are a decent family; my boys are very respectable over all. Yet, compared to a large number of acquaintances, we are devil’s food because my husband and I allow some pop/rock music and PG-13-rated movies. What is more, we do not restrict their socializing to only people in the group. Many, otherwise very holy people do. In fact, nothinng secular would be allowed to darken their door. How can I criticize them when their children are some of finest people I’ve ever met?

I have talked to my son and told him that he can socialize with this young lady, but there is to be no physical contact. He (and she, since she attends our youth group) are currently being instructed in Theology of the Body which we reinforce at home.

Perhaps I did overreact. I suppose I am just shocked that it happened at all.

What do you all think is appropriate for an authentic Catholic family in terms of media and engagement with the outside world? Is there “no compromise” or contact during the formative years, as Father tells me? Or is a little here and there acceptable? If it is the former, we are in trouble. I do not believe that living in fear of every little nuance is healthy. They must learn to discern the worthy from the unworthy. What is your opinion?

 

[kage_ar]

One thing, I would be very careful about passing judgement on this girl’s moral upbringing. Are you certain that the girl is not permitted by the employer to give ice cream away or that she did not pay for the ice cream herself? If you do not want your son to accept gifts, that is a rule you can make.

 

[hasikelee]

Haskilee,

I sympathize with your experience. It is just this type of gossip that worries me about my son. Most families we are involved with are very conservative. Catching wind of this would, most assuredly, ruin his reputation. Being “shunned” by these people could very easily ruin his faith.

We are a decent family; my boys are very respectable over all. Yet, compared to a large number of acquaintances, we are devil’s food because my husband and I allow some pop/rock music and PG-13-rated movies. What is more, we do not restrict their socializing to only people in the group. Many, otherwise very holy people do. In fact, nothinng secular would be allowed to darken their door. How can I criticize them when their children are some of finest people I’ve ever met?

I have talked to my son and told him that he can socialize with this young lady, but there is to be no physical contact. He (and she, since she attends our youth group) are currently being instructed in Theology of the Body which we reinforce at home.

Perhaps I did overreact. I suppose I am just shocked that it happened at all.

What do you all think is appropriate for an authentic Catholic family in terms of media and engagement with the outside world? Is there “no compromise” or contact during the formative years, as Father tells me? Or is a little here and there acceptable? If it is the former, we are in trouble. I do not believe that living in fear of every little nuance is healthy. They must learn to discern the worthy from the unworthy. What is your opinion?

Well, you described the people I socialised with in highschool. Such fine kids!

I would recommend a few drop-in visits. Surprise visits. Maybe a heart to heart with your son, if you think he will tell you anything.

The super holy people in that group carried on as if they were such grand protectors of their children, such holy and immaculate parents. Meanwhile, I had my first taste of an actual “bad crowd”
with their kids. Smoking, sex, oral sex, vanity, fighting, bullying, stealing, suicidal ideation and a host of borderline or outright mental illnesses became my weekly play date.

I would watch the daughter of the head of the group do a complete 180 when an adult walked into the room. Maybe she was a good actress, maybe it’s typical to treat parents differently than peers, but since I got to know her, I knew she had an onset of depression, was raped by relatives, was engaging in risky sexual behavior and was the main reason most of the girls in that group suffered. Of course, all the other mommies called her such a dear. “Why aren’t you more like Mr.s X daughter? She doesn’t want to wear denim skirts! Look at how pure and sweet she is!”

But yeah, you’re right. They don’t get to watch PG13 movies or listen to rock music, or wear clothes from this century.

 

[jmcrae]

What do you all think is appropriate for an authentic Catholic family in terms of media and engagement with the outside world? Is there “no compromise” or contact during the formative years, as Father tells me? Or is a little here and there acceptable? If it is the former, we are in trouble. I do not believe that living in fear of every little nuance is healthy. They must learn to discern the worthy from the unworthy. What is your opinion?

They have to have some contact with popular culture, or they’ll have no idea what people are talking about.

Personally, I felt guilty and self-indulgent last summer when I watched “The 300” while away on my holiday - but when I got back, the group of boys that I was assigned to work with were role-playing from “The 300” - if I had not seen the movie, I would have thought them insane, or worse - but I understood the language of the role-play that they were doing, and I was able to facilitate the good aspects of it, while helping them to put aside the negative aspects of it - which was much better than simply banning the role-play altogether - which is what I would have done, had I not known what they were trying to do. In order to communicate, one needs to be able to “speak the language” and these cultural artifacts - movies, music, books, etc. - are part of the “language”.

We can’t evangelize, if we can’t communicate.

 

[leonie]

Well, you described the people I socialised with in highschool. Such fine kids!

I would recommend a few drop-in visits. Surprise visits. Maybe a heart to heart with your son, if you think he will tell you anything.

The super holy people in that group carried on as if they were such grand protectors of their children, such holy and immaculate parents. Meanwhile, I had my first taste of an actual “bad crowd”
with their kids. Smoking, sex, oral sex, vanity, fighting, bullying, stealing, suicidal ideation and a host of borderline or outright mental illnesses became my weekly play date.

I would watch the daughter of the head of the group do a complete 180 when an adult walked into the room. Maybe she was a good actress, maybe it’s typical to treat parents differently than peers, but since I got to know her, I knew she had an onset of depression, was raped by relatives, was engaging in risky sexual behavior and was the main reason most of the girls in that group suffered. Of course, all the other mommies called her such a dear. “Why aren’t you more like Mr.s X daughter? She doesn’t want to wear denim skirts! Look at how pure and sweet she is!”

But yeah, you’re right. They don’t get to watch PG13 movies or listen to rock music, or wear clothes from this century.

Aw, I’m in the same group as Ceil, and it isn’t that conservative. I find the families very nice and understanding. And, most of the families with teens have had very similar situations.

I think it’s just a shock when your own teen goes through it.

 

[Em_in_FL]

What do you all think is appropriate for an authentic Catholic family in terms of media and engagement with the outside world? Is there “no compromise” or contact during the formative years, as Father tells me? Or is a little here and there acceptable? If it is the former, we are in trouble. I do not believe that living in fear of every little nuance is healthy. They must learn to discern the worthy from the unworthy. What is your opinion?

I think everything that children are exposed to needs to decided on a case by case basis… with judgment calls made by the parents.
I agree with you, that completely isolating children from the world is unhealthy. While preserving innocence is very important, we are also called to TEACH our children. Unless we, as parents, truly TEACH these decision making skills (looking at a situation from ALL angles and discerning everything) then our children will not know what to do once they are faced with big issues in life. Unfortunately, yes, I believe that this requires some level of exposing them to the world. Without that exposure and the vital lessons associated, our children can fall once our “safety barrier” of parenthood has expired.

 

[sanctamaria17]

I agree with the pop culture thing. I’m a college student, so pop culture is a part of the every day for me. I own an iPod, I listen to U2, the Beatles, the Dropkick Murphies, Metallica, etc. I was watching the Godfather with a friend last night and I have a variety of movies (Kingdom of Heaven, the Godfather trilogy, Under the Tuscan Sun, etc). I have male and female friends and I feel completely comfortable hugging my guy friends, knowing that it’s nothing more than a brother and sister would do. I have crushes on guys and would be completely fine with dating someone (though it’s not my main priority right now). I wear makeup and nice clothes and I own a pair of high heeled boots.

At the same time, I’m Catholic and very into my faith. I go to Mass every Sunday and at least once during the workweek. I won’t be having sex till marriage, I’m active in the pro-life movement (as well as working against sexual/domestic violence), and I’m very grounded in my faith. I’m extremely active in the Catholic community and that’s one thing most people know about me, even if they don’t know my name.

Bottom line? Live in this world, just not of it. Use the technology and such the world has with discernment and for the glory of God. Also, don’t worry about what the Catholics around you say or do as much. I had to learn that one the hard way. People can be well meaning, but they still are people and not above sinning or being broken in some way.

 

[Ceil-1]

Leonie,

I may be referring to a different set of people you are thinking of.
. I am not referring to our immediate group, but to those more on the “fringe”.

Certainly, the majority of homeschooling families are “normal”, just like us. rolleyes: ). But, I do wonder whether we have been strict enough.

Haskilee,

I understand what you are saying. I often wonder about some of these people myself. Were these Catholic kids, though? I’m not saying that the Catholics are real and everyone else is hypocritical. I am saying that these parents keep their kids on awfully short leashes.

I would hope my kids would not be one of those who are nicey-nice in front of the adults, and something altogether different behind my back. Such a thing would break my heart. I have seen worrisome signs from time to time. There is a tendency to sneak. I also had a five dollar bill missing from my purse which miraculously showed up on the floor of the garqage after I made it known I was aware it was missing. My son said this girl gets free ice cream, but once I found an empty container on the porch where he had chucked it. He didn’t want me to know about it. I hate to be cynical, but…

I once knew a woman who had 8 kids. Her husband and she were rather poor. She always worked part-time and her husband was a laborer. She told me to always support my children no matter what they did. She supported her two boys who quit high school. Today they own Empire Glass, a thriving company (when I knew her). When she and her husband retired, the kids got together and bought them a house. The first they ever had. Isn’t that sweet? I have always remembered this advice. I now must put it in practice. But, it is hard. I think I’m a bit of a control freak. Leonie, would you agree with that statement?

 

[leonie]

I think I’m a bit of a control freak. Leonie, would you agree with that statement?

just a little, but a great mom and friend!!!

 

[hasikelee]

Leonie,

I may be referring to a different set of people you are thinking of.
. I am not referring to our immediate group, but to those more on the “fringe”.

Certainly, the majority of homeschooling families are “normal”, just like us. rolleyes: ). But, I do wonder whether we have been strict enough.

Haskilee,

I understand what you are saying. I often wonder about some of these people myself. Were these Catholic kids, though? I’m not saying that the Catholics are real and everyone else is hypocritical. I am saying that these parents keep their kids on awfully short leashes.

I would hope my kids would not be one of those who are nicey-nice in front of the adults, and something altogether different behind my back. Such a thing would break my heart. I have seen worrisome signs from time to time. There is a tendency to sneak. I also had a five dollar bill missing from my purse which miraculously showed up on the floor of the garqage after I made it known I was aware it was missing. My son said this girl gets free ice cream, but once I found an empty container on the porch where he had chucked it. He didn’t want me to know about it. I hate to be cynical, but…

I once knew a woman who had 8 kids. Her husband and she were rather poor. She always worked part-time and her husband was a laborer. She told me to always support my children no matter what they did. She supported her two boys who quit high school. Today they own Empire Glass, a thriving company (when I knew her). When she and her husband retired, the kids got together and bought them a house. The first they ever had. Isn’t that sweet? I have always remembered this advice. I now must put it in practice. But, it is hard. I think I’m a bit of a control freak. Leonie, would you agree with that statement?

Oh, please know that I don’t believe all groups similar to mine are filled with hypocrisy and abuse. I remain a little peeved over my particular experience, as is probably noticeable. But I won’t swipe with a brush over everyone.

That being said, it is a great tragedy that this group was Catholic and the group prominently used a Catholic name. They kept them on very short leashes, indeed.

After reading a lot from Christopher West, I feel that this group espoused his “Angelican” example. (Where he says some people are animals, some are angels, both deny true Catholic teaching). Although they followed the Pope, they really leaned more towards Pius X. Sex was dirty and evil, your body will betray you, etc etc.

 

[leonie]

After reading a lot from Christopher West, I feel that this group espoused his “Angelican” example. (Where he says some people are animals, some are angels, both deny true Catholic teaching). Although they followed the Pope, they really leaned more towards Pius X. Sex was dirty and evil, your body will betray you, etc etc.

I’ve noticed some of this prudishness among many devout Catholics and Protestants I know. I think it’s a bit of the Puritanism still lurking in our culture. It drives me nuts that in my homeschooling co-ops art history, some of the Catholic moms are scandelized by nudes in art. In one co-op I was teaching, the moms didn’t want me to show Michangelo’s Sistine Chapel creation picture.

What heresy is the body is evil–Manichaeism?

 

[jmcrae]

What heresy is the body is evil–Manichaeism?

Yes. And the vestiges of it actually come down to us quite honestly - St. Augustine started off as a preacher in the Manichean religion. Even after his conversion to the Catholic faith, he was still quite strongly influenced by it - and, through his writings, even today, there are people who are influenced by that kind of thinking.

Augustine would no doubt have been horrified by the Sistine Chapel, and a lot of other really great Catholic art - but in this, he was not in line with Church teaching.

Obviously the Puritans took this stuff to the extreme and died out, but there are also Catholics who are strongly influenced by it, and do a lot of damage to our cultural heritage, and to their kids, with it.

 

[Ceil-1]

From Haskilee,

After reading a lot from Christopher West, I feel that this group espoused his “Angelican” example. (Where he says some people are animals, some are angels, both deny true Catholic teaching). Although they followed the Pope, they really leaned more towards Pius X. Sex was dirty and evil, your body will betray you, etc etc.

My goodness, people who call themselves Catholic believe those things? I have never heard of this and would be interested in knowing more. It sounds a lot like some of the people we know. Perhaps it is from the same school of thought.

Leonie is right; there are several families who are on the puritanical side. Plus, they equate their organic food preferences with religion. I mean to say, that, they believe it is a sin to eat the regular processed foods you find in the grocery store. One mother told me they drove several miles every other day, and paid several dollars for a gallon of milk from a real cow that they drink raw. Now I’m all for drinking raw milk, but, you can get the no horomone stuff in the grocery store for less money and hassle.

I think that this is a compulsive, disordered need that is put on par with religiosity. It takes the focus off of evangelization which is what we are supposed to be focused on.

This thread has been helpful to me, thank you for your relpies. I also plan to start another thread on this fascinating subject of food preferences. I know people who are absolutely fanatical about it.

 

[hasikelee]

From Haskilee,

After reading a lot from Christopher West, I feel that this group espoused his “Angelican” example. (Where he says some people are animals, some are angels, both deny true Catholic teaching). Although they followed the Pope, they really leaned more towards Pius X. Sex was dirty and evil, your body will betray you, etc etc.

My goodness, people who call themselves Catholic believe those things? I have never heard of this and would be interested in knowing more. It sounds a lot like some of the people we know. Perhaps it is from the same school of thought.

Leonie is right; there are several families who are on the puritanical side. Plus, they equate their organic food preferences with religion. I mean to say, that, they believe it is a sin to eat the regular processed foods you find in the grocery store. One mother told me they drove several miles every other day, and paid several dollars for a gallon of milk from a real cow that they drink raw. Now I’m all for drinking raw milk, but, you can get the no horomone stuff in the grocery store for less money and hassle.

I think that this is a compulsive, disordered need that is put on par with religiosity. It takes the focus off of evangelization which is what we are supposed to be focused on.

This thread has been helpful to me, thank you for your relpies. I also plan to start another thread on this fascinating subject of food preferences. I know people who are absolutely fanatical about it.

Actually, the value of the human body being that of nil in this group, we were about the only family who practiced daily exercise, healthy foods, or other things that might be termed “alternative” choices.

Most the kids I knew ate the regular, processed junk.

I know one family had chickens and goats, but that was more for a long-term school project.

You do give a good example of the unreasonable actions, though. For some reason, it is the level of exertion that seems to be special to them. Going to the store and purchasing a gallon of organic milk just isn’t enough of a sacrifice. It’s strange.

Similarly, you can buy plenty of pretty, modest dresses and skirts and blouses, but that wasn’t enough. They had to sew their own clothes, and those who didn’t were obviously heretics.

The contradictions were many and confusing!

 

[kage_ar]

I’d be willing to wager that the chucked ice-cream container was not proof of stolen ice cream, but either

A: a teenage boy who put it down and forgot about it, and it rolled off on it’s own little journey. My son and his friends do this often. DS takes a disposable travel cup of coffee to the bus stop every morning. I drive past there on my way to work after the kids are gone. One day, there was DS travel cup, just sitting on the rail at the bus stop. I asked him about it that evening - he was “I wondered what happened to my coffee”.

B: he knew you would give him grief about it and did not want to hassle with it, so, he chucked it.

Teens are sooooo much fun!