Descendant of David?

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By the way, it’s got to be the same Jeconiah, becasue the one in Jerimiah 22 is of the Royal lineage; so too is the one in Joseph’s lineage. There’ only one Jeconiah in the genealogies. It’s the one who was cursed, Jesus’ ANCESTOR?!
 
pcusack1 said:
Jerimiah 22:18-30 is Jeconiahs curse. YHWH doesn’t lie. He knows the future as well as the past. He can’t deceive or be deceived.
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For those interested, here is the verse.***

30 Thus says the LORD: Write this man down as one childless, who will never thrive in his lifetime! No descendant of his shall achieve a seat on the throne of David as ruler again over Judah.
I’m just curious. I’ll do some research on this, but does Jesus sit on the throne as rule again over Judah?
pcusack1 said:
What about Isaiah 53: The Suffering servant will l"ive a long life and live to see his descendants". Jesus doens’t fit this either.
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I thought that Jesus has lived a long life and has seen His Descendants.

But again, for those reading along, here’s the verse from Isaiah 53 - 10 (But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him.

pcusack1, I need to ask you one thing. When you list yourself as “Catholic”, are you listing yourself as what Roman Catholics think of as “Catholic”?
 
The Moshiach Ben David is supposed to be the one who comes once and rules over the house of Israel and the entire world.

If Jesus were the Messiah, then he would rule over Judah (Jews) and Israel. He is supposed to have a viceroy Moshaich Ben Joseph (MBJ) or Ben Ephraim. This fellow comes from the 10 Losrt Northern Lost Tribes or the gentiles.

Some Jews beleive that the Book of Revelation is a Jewish Book if we subtract the first couple of chapters and the last part.

But the reason the Jews do not accpt Jesus as their Messiah is that he is not a descendant or the fruit of Davids’s body as the Psalms have it.

Of couse a Kingly line must pass form a King. There froe the Jewish Moshaich Ben David must descend from the line of King Solomon. This eliminates the symbolic genealogy of Luke 3 since it passes through Nathan. Matthew’s lineage is eliminated because, although it pass through Solomon, Jesus has no physical connection to David. Thus He can’t be Ben David (Son of David). If its a legal line, then why is Jeconiah cursed?

If we say that the curse was reversed later, then we are making god out to be a liar. Why? Becuase God know the future as well as the past. He would not knowingly speak a falsehood. The definition of a liar is to say something one knows to be false.

I can’t see how Jesus is Moshiach Ben David.

Yes, I was born Catholic, practiced Catholic, (daily Mass fro 10 years), and over 2 million Hail Mary’s on the Rossary. If Jesus is the Messiah Son of David, I can’t see how. Perhpas you can explain it?
 
I asked two Catholic Theologians this query. One told me he has no answer (he was also a priest). His respondse was that You just have to accpet Jesus on blind faith.

The second said that the Messiah need not bbe a descendant of David!

some Messanic Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and Jeconiah’s curse was reversed. But I doin’t buy this arguement. Why would God reverse himself? He’s imutable since changin means going from a higher state to a lower state. Goes along with being perfect!

some websites admit that there is a valid curse, and this is why Jesus had to be fathered by God himself. Then Jesus would be Ben God - not Ben David.

And to really confuse things, Jesue is said to be God. God has no ancesotrs- certianly not David. The Scripteues are loadded with verses whihc indicate that the Mesiah comes from King David the Ephraite (Jesse -the Ephraite from Bethelem).
 
The logic goes like this:
Is Joseph a descendant of David? A: Yes.
Does he pass through a cursed line? A Yes.
Can Joseph pass the Throne of Israel on to his descendants A No, he’s cursed.
Is Jesus a descendant of Joseph? A No, there is no physical connection between Joseph and Jesus.
Can Mary pass on the Throne of Israel? A Only if she is the only remianing female of the Kingly line of David and Solomon.
Did Solomon have antoher son besides Jeconiah’s line. A Probably, he had 900 wives. Can Mary, a female pass on the Throne of Israel? A Not likely if Solomon had other sons.
Is Jesus a descendant of David. A Not through Joseph or Mary.
Can Jesus inherit the Throne of Israel from Joseph or Mary?A No
Is Jesus the King of the Jews. A No
Is Jesus the Messiah? A No
Who are the ancestors of Jesus. A noo one. God has no ancestors.
Can he be the descendant of David perhpas legally? A Maybe.
Can Joseph of the cursed line pass on the Throne of Israel? A No, God said so.
Does God lie? A No. He can’t lie because His word is so powerful that a lie becomes the Truth.
Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah. A Yes
 
If we say that Jesus had a long life, sicne he has an imortal soul, then we could say that everyone lives a long life. This ais a semantics game. Obviously, what is meant is that the Messiah will die at an old age and will have a marriage and children.

This disqualifies Jesus by itself. Jesus is therefore not the Suffering Servant of Isaiah.
 
Psalm 132:
Code: 
11The LORD has (R)sworn to David
     A truth from which He will not turn back:
     "(S)Of the** fruit of your body I will set upon your throne**.
12"If your sons will keep My covenant
     And My testimony which I will teach them,
     Their sons also shall (T)sit upon your throne forever."
 
pcusack1 said:
The Moshiach Ben David is supposed to be the one who comes once and rules over the house of Israel and the entire world.
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This is exactly what the Jews thought would happen. They were wrong. I’m very curious why you side with them on this. They are looking for an earthly ruler instead of a heavenly ruler. That’s why so many rejected Jesus.
pcusack1 said:
If Jesus were the Messiah, then he would rule over Judah (Jews) and Israel. He is supposed to have a viceroy Moshaich Ben Joseph (MBJ) or Ben Ephraim. This fellow comes from the 10 Losrt Northern Lost Tribes or the gentiles.

Some Jews beleive that the Book of Revelation is a Jewish Book if we subtract the first couple of chapters and the last part.

But the reason the Jews do not accpt Jesus as their Messiah is that he is not a descendant or the fruit of Davids’s body as the Psalms have it.
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You still haven’t commented on Post #8, where it shows that the adopted has the full rights of the foster parent.
pcusack1 said:
Of couse a Kingly line must pass form a King. There froe the Jewish Moshaich Ben David must descend from the line of King Solomon. This eliminates the symbolic genealogy of Luke 3 since it passes through Nathan. Matthew’s lineage is eliminated because, although it pass through Solomon, Jesus has no physical connection to David. Thus He can’t be Ben David (Son of David). If its a legal line, then why is Jeconiah cursed?

If we say that the curse was reversed later, then we are making god out to be a liar. Why? Becuase God know the future as well as the past. He would not knowingly speak a falsehood. The definition of a liar is to say something one knows to be false.

I can’t see how Jesus is Moshiach Ben David.
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I’ll continue to look into this. I recall seeing an explanation, but I haven’t found it.

But, let me ask you something. What do you think of Jeremiah 31, where God claims that HE will shepherd his people. Doesn’t Jesus fulfill this role?
pcusack1 said:
Yes, I was born Catholic, practiced Catholic, (daily Mass fro 10 years), and over 2 million Hail Mary’s on the Rossary. If Jesus is the Messiah Son of David, I can’t see how. Perhpas you can explain it?
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No, I CAN’T see how you can claim to be Catholic, for you don’t believe Jesus is God or that Jesus is the Messiah.
 
pcusack1 said:
The logic goes like this:
Is Joseph a descendant of David? A: Yes.
Does he pass through a cursed line? A Yes.
Can Joseph pass the Throne of Israel on to his descendants A No, he’s cursed.
Is Jesus a descendant of Joseph? A No, there is no physical connection between Joseph and Jesus.
Can Mary pass on the Throne of Israel? A Only if she is the only remianing female of the Kingly line of David and Solomon.
Did Solomon have antoher son besides Jeconiah’s line. A Probably, he had 900 wives. Can Mary, a female pass on the Throne of Israel? A Not likely if Solomon had other sons.
Is Jesus a descendant of David. A Not through Joseph or Mary.
Can Jesus inherit the Throne of Israel from Joseph or Mary?A No
Is Jesus the King of the Jews. A No
Is Jesus the Messiah? A No
Who are the ancestors of Jesus. A noo one. God has no ancestors.
Can he be the descendant of David perhpas legally? A Maybe.
Can Joseph of the cursed line pass on the Throne of Israel? A No, God said so.
Does God lie? A No. He can’t lie because His word is so powerful that a lie becomes the Truth.
Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah. A Yes
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Do Catholics claim that Jesus is God? Yes, in one of those masses that you went to, you would have said that you believe that Jesus is… “God from God, Light from Light”

Doesn’t Scripture that, through Baptism, we become sons of God? The Church has taught this throughout her history. I recall St. Ireneaus saying, “The Son of God became the Son of Man so that sons of men could become sons of God.”

Hence, if we are sons of God, and Jesus is God, couldn’t we be called His Descendants?
 
pcusack1 said:
If we say that Jesus had a long life, sicne he has an imortal soul, then we could say that everyone lives a long life. This ais a semantics game. Obviously, what is meant is that the Messiah will die at an old age and will have a marriage and children.

This disqualifies Jesus by itself. Jesus is therefore not the Suffering Servant of Isaiah.
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Except that Jesus’ mortal body is fused with His immortal soul. Hence, He has a long life.

And, until you find me someone who better fits the role, I’m going to stick with the 2000 year teaching that Jesus is the Suffering Servant.
 
pcusack1 said:
Psalm 132:
Code: 
11The LORD has (R)sworn to David
     A truth from which He will not turn back:
     "(S)Of the** fruit of your body I will set upon your throne**.
12"If your sons will keep My covenant
     And My testimony which I will teach them,
     Their sons also shall (T)sit upon your throne forever."
Click to expand...
But… weren’t there at least 2 or 3 (or maybe a dozen or so?) that didn’t keep God’s covenant?
 
Well, like the two Catholic Theologian, no one can address the issues head on. You can believe with 'blind faith" that Jesus is the Messiah. And you can be wrong for another 2000 years. As Fulton J Sheen said, “A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The Truth is the Truth even if no one believes it”

Jesus was an impelling Rabbi. He even got his teachings from the Talmud, if you bother to read it. Did he have profund philosophical teachings? Yes. Was he the Messiah? No. Unless and until some ne can show that he was the “fruit of David’s body” (Ps 132) through the line of King Solomon, then he is not the Messiah Ben David, despite his claims. Even the Gospel writer recognized that they must show lineage. Was Jesus a lunitic, liar or Lord? If he is Lord, then he must descend from David. It’s the primary requirement of the Messiah Ben David.
 
pcusack1 said:
Well, like the two Catholic Theologian, no one can address the issues head on. You can believe with 'blind faith" that Jesus is the Messiah. And you can be wrong for another 2000 years. As Fulton J Sheen said, “A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The Truth is the Truth even if no one believes it”

Jesus was an impelling Rabbi. He even got his teachings from the Talmud, if you bother to read it. Did he have profund philosophical teachings? Yes. Was he the Messiah? No. Unless and until some ne can show that he was the “fruit of David’s body” (Ps 132) through the line of King Solomon, then he is not the Messiah Ben David, despite his claims. Even the Gospel writer recognized that they must show lineage. Was Jesus a lunitic, liar or Lord? If he is Lord, then he must descend from David. It’s the primary requirement of the Messiah Ben David.
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OK, pcusack1. Can I ask you something? Can you remove the “Catholic” from your profile, because you definitely aren’t catholic with rhetoric like this.

With that said, I’ll continue to look at it.

But, let me ask you. Does Jesus sit on the throne of Judah, or the Throne of Israel?
 
He sits on neither the Throne of Israel nor Judah. He is not of the Kingly line of David.

As for posting 31, let me ask you: Is the Messiah from the line of David or not? If the covenant was broken, then David’s son could not sit on the Throne. So why did the Gospel wirters go to length to show that Jesus was a descendant of David (Solomon or Nathan)? The covenant must have been in tact. It’s a son of David the Ephraite who sits on the Throne of Israel (from the Tribe of Joseph, the Patriach)
 
I really do not see what revelance my personal background has on the issue under discussion. What difference does it make if I’m Catholic or not? I’m using the Bible to interpret the Bible. I tak it at face value. The Muslims have taught that Jesus was just a prophet for 1400 years. Does that make them right? Please stick to the topic.
 
I take it since you are so interested in my religious background. Becuase I’m Catholic I shouldn’t investigate my beliefs?

The fourm is called “Catholic Answers”. I thought that Catholics would have answers to these basic questions. There are even websites that speak of Jeconiah’s curse. It’s not new.

The Apologist can’t answer it either. My background has no influence on the Truth. Truth is independent of the individual.

Now lets get down to some answers. Take your time and think it over if you like. It’s a complex problem.
 
pcusack1 said:
I really do not see what revelance my personal background has on the issue under discussion. What difference does it make if I’m Catholic or not? I’m using the Bible to interpret the Bible. I tak it at face value. The Muslims have taught that Jesus was just a prophet for 1400 years. Does that make them right? Please stick to the topic.
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I’m just saying that you referenced Bishop Sheen on lying. And here you are deliberately misleading people into thinking that you are Catholic. I call that lying.

If you do not want others to know what you really believe, simply leave the religion blank.
 
pcusack1,

Does the fact that Jesus was of a Virgin Birth clear this up? He is not of the blood-line of Jeconiah (and David), thus avoiding the curse, but He is of the legal line of David (and Jeconiah), thus fulfilling the prophecies.

I’m not claiming, just postulating.
 
I repeat, my religious beliefs have no influence whatsoever on the Truth. I don’t see even why you both to check this? It just fuels predjudice.

As fopr the postulation, Jesus’ legal cliam to the Throne is through Joseph. If Joseph’s lineage is cursed, then Jesus has no inheritance. In fact, Christians who accept the curse, argue that this lineage of Joseph was necessary for God to become the Father of Jesus as they see it. I don’t see it that way.

Christians claim that Jesus is God. If he is, then he would have no ancestors. Therefore how can he be the Messiah Ben David (son of David)?
 
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