Descendant of David?

[patrick457]

By the way, it’s got to be the same Jeconiah, becasue the one in Jerimiah 22 is of the Royal lineage; so too is the one in Joseph’s lineage. There’ only one Jeconiah in the genealogies. It’s the one who was cursed, Jesus’ ANCESTOR?!

Well, I’ll drop my two cents:

“I live” - an utterance of YHWH - "though Koniyahu ben-Yehoyaqim, king of Yehudah, were a signet-ring on my right hand, surely thence I would pluck you off, and I will give you into a hand of those seeking your life, and into a hand whose face you fear - into the hand of Nebuchadretzar king of Babel, and into the hand of the Kasdim, and I will hurl you and your mother who bore you, to another land, where you were not born, and there you shall die, and to the land to which they are lifting up their soul to return there, there they shall not return. Is this man Koniyahu a jar despised, shattered? A vessel in which there is no pleasure? Why have they been thrown up and down - he and his seed - and are hurled on to a land that they know not?
“Land, land, land, hear a word of YHWH! Thus said YHWH: ‘Write this man childless, a man - he shall not prosper in his days, for none of his seed shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David, and ruling again in Yehudah!’”

But in Haggai 2:23 we read:

“In that day” - an utterance of YHWH Tzeva’ot - “I will take you, Zerub’babel ben-She’alti’el, my servant,” an utterance of YHWH, “and will set you as a signet-ring, for you I have chosen,” an utterance of YHWH Tzeva’ot.

So you can notice that with Zerubbabel, there’s a reversal of expressions - his grandfather was taken out, but he was set back. There is actually a Jewish tradition that the curse was revoked when Jeconiah repented.

…and Ezekias begot Manasses, and Manasses begot Amos, and Amos begat Josias, and Josias begat Jechonias and his brothers, at the Babylonian deportation. Now after the Babylonian deportation, Jechonias begat Salathiel, and Salathiel begat Zorobabel…

 

[pcusack1]

Q: What di YHWH mean when he siad that none of Jeconiah’s descendants would sit upon the Throne ever in Jerimiah 22:30?

Is Zarabbell a descendant of Jeconiah?

 

[NotWorthy]

I repeat, my religious beliefs have no influence whatsoever on the Truth. I don’t see even why you both to check this? It just fuels predjudice.

Evidently you do think it has influence, or else you wouldn’t have put “Catholic” on your religion. It seems to fuel misconceptions.

As fopr the postulation, Jesus’ legal cliam to the Throne is through Joseph. If Joseph’s lineage is cursed, then Jesus has no inheritance. In fact, Christians who accept the curse, argue that this lineage of Joseph was necessary for God to become the Father of Jesus as they see it. I don’t see it that way.

No, for the exact reason I proposed. Jesus is of the legal line of David, while not being of the blood-line of Jeconiah.

Christians claim that Jesus is God. If he is, then he would have no ancestors. Therefore how can he be the Messiah Ben David (son of David)?

When God became Man, he had ancestors through His biological mother.

 

[pcusack1]

Jesus indeed had ancestors through his mother. But to be a King, one must carry the Y DNA of the father. Primeogeniture thrones are not passed through the mother. They are passed through the boys only.

As for my religion, misconceptions of what? Your predjudices?

 

[pcusack1]

Patrick:

I have two questions that I’ve raised you might be able to answer:

Q1: What does Ps 132 mean when it tells us that the fruit of David’s body will sit upon the Throne forever? Jesus was not the fruit of David’s body.Jesus has no physical connection with David. Usually a King descends from the Kingly line ie Solomon

Q2:
What does it mean whe Isaiah 52 states that the Suffering Servant will live a long life and live to see his descendants? Jesus did not have a long life nor did he have descendants (despite what movies might indicate.) Certianly its not the immortal soul. And we are not his descnedants.

Any help appreciated.

 

[patrick457]

Q: What di YHWH mean when he siad that none of Jeconiah’s descendants would sit upon the Throne ever in Jerimiah 22:30?

The divine curse against Jehoiachin (aka Jeconiah or Coniah) has three parts, all of which - as you would see - have not been fulfilled:

that he would be childless (this is how the Hebrew text literally reads)
that he would not prosper in his lifetime
that none of his descendants would rule in Judah

As for number 1, though the Hebrew literally reads, “Record this man childless,” Jeconiah in fact had children according to 1 Chronicles 3:17 (“Shealtiel his son, Malkiram, Pedaiah, Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama and Nedabiah,” and it goes on to list their children).
As for number 2, Jeconiah did have some ‘prosperity’ in Babylon. According to 2 Kings 25:27-30 (ESV):

And in the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, Evil-merodach king of Babylon, in the year that he began to reign, graciously freed Jehoiachin king of Judah from prison. And he spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat above the seats of the kings who were with him in Babylon. So Jehoiachin put off his prison garments. And every day of his life he dined regularly at the king’s table, and for his allowance, a regular allowance was given him by the king, according to his daily needs, as long as he lived.

As for number 3, while it is true that Zerubbabel did not sit on the throne as king of Judah, the fact that Haggai 2:23 uses the same symbolism of the signet ring as Jeremiah 22:24 shows that there was an intention to indicate a reversal of the curse.

The conclusion is thus that in Jeremiah 22:30, “in his days” qualifies the following phrases, and “for” explains that no descendant of his will prosper and rule during Jeconiah’s lifetime.

Is Zarabbell a descendant of Jeconiah?

No offense, but did you actually read the last part of my post?

…and Ezekias begot Manasses, and Manasses begot Amos, and Amos begat Josias, and Josias begat Jechonias and his brothers, at the Babylonian deportation. Now after the Babylonian deportation, Jechonias begat Salathiel, and Salathiel begat Zorobabel…

That’s Matthew writing there. 1 Chronicles 3:17 mention a Shealtiel among the sons of Jeconiah, and Zerubabbel is called Shealtiel’s son in Haggai 2:23. So, as per Matthew, Zerubabbel is Jeconiah’s grandson.

Again, the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Jeconiah mention a Jewish tradition that, as a reward for his penitence, not only was Jeconiah forgiven and his curse revoked, but that the Messiah would also come from his line!

Jehoiachin’s sad experiences changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii. 30; Pesiḳ., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b); he even became the ancestor of the Messiah (Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140]). It was especially his firmness in fulfilling the Law that restored him to God’s favor. He was kept by Nebuchadnezzar in solitary confinement, and as he was therefore separated from his wife, the Sanhedrin, which had been expelled with him to Babylon, feared that at the death of this queen the house of David would become extinct.

 

[pcusack1]

I’m confused here.

If Mary is Jesus’ mother, and his mother has ancestors, then Jesus (God) has ancestors? That means, for example, that Nathan is an ancestor of God?

Who. Too difficult for me!

 

[pcusack1]

hold it.
Mary gave Jesus his body and blood.

Joseph gave Jesus his legal inheritiance through an un-cursed line.

Jesus is the fruit of David’s body through Mary…

Problem: It’s David’s sons that sit upon the Throne forever.Ps 132

Jesus is the g g g g… sgrand son of David through Mary.

But the Throne belongs to Jospeh. So Joseph sat upon the Throne of David, until he died. Then the Throne passed to his legal hei, namely Jesus. Joseph had no other sons, thus no other cliiaim on the Throne.

This prooves that Mary was a Virgin who conceived; Jospeh died before Jesus; and Joseph had no other sons to have a claim on the Throne of Israel

JESUS IS THEREFORE THE KING OF THE JEWS. AS SUCH HE IS THE MESSIAH. Moshiach Ben Jospeh is the Viceroy of JESUS as per Revelation 2:26.

 

[patrick457]

Patrick:

I have two questions that I’ve raised you might be able to answer:

Q1: What does Ps 132 mean when it tells us that the fruit of David’s body will sit upon the Throne forever? Jesus was not the fruit of David’s body.Jesus has no physical connection with David. Usually a King descends from the Kingly line ie Solomon

Luke also mentions Mary as a Davidic descendant, hence Jesus still had some biological connection with David through Mary. You’re correct that He was not a biological son of Joseph. Even so, you have to remember that Jesus was legally Joseph’s son and thus, was a Davidic descendant in the eyes of the law. When Joseph adopted Jesus as His legal son, Jesus became both David’s direct descendant through David’s son Nathan (Mary’s side - as per Luke), and David’s legal royal heir through Solomon (Joseph’s side - as per Matthew).

(BTW, I just noticed that you answered your own question - not bad! )

Q2:
What does it mean whe Isaiah 52 states that the Suffering Servant will live a long life and live to see his descendants? Jesus did not have a long life nor did he have descendants (despite what movies might indicate.) Certianly its not the immortal soul. And we are not his descnedants.

Any help appreciated.

I think this link might answer the “seed” part: socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/05/jesus-had-offspring-isaiah-5310.html

 

[patrick457]

I’m confused here.

If Mary is Jesus’ mother, and his mother has ancestors, then Jesus (God) has ancestors? That means, for example, that Nathan is an ancestor of God?

Who. Too difficult for me!

Well, Jesus did have ancestors in His humanity (obviously), but not in His divinity (since God has no beginning) - I hope I didn’t misspeak there. Remember: He is true God AND true man.

 

[pcusack1]

I don’t mean to be a thread killer, but THANK YOU!

 

[pcusack1]

PRAISE BE JESUS CHRIST!

I’ve been wondering about this topic for 15 years. Now I fee that it has been satisfactorially answerd.

Thank you for your generous help. May God Bless you!