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buffalo
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Indeed. They will not find what you have claimed to be proven or without challenge.
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Descendants of Adam and Eve mated with pre-humans?
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englands123
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Yes this is the subject.
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EndTimes
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Yeah. Sure…
Spend your days attempting to disprove what you cannot.
Why? And for What? Bored?
Spend your days attempting to disprove what you cannot.
Why? And for What? Bored?
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Elf01
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Provide the proof for a bottleneck of two please.Indeed. They will not find what you have claimed to be proven or without challenge.
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EndTimes
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Yep …Provide the proof for a bottleneck of two please.
Thanks…
Another Tell without the Show re: "BottleNeck & “science says”
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TMC
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There have been some quotes from Catholic teachings on this topic, including from Communion and Stewardship, but somehow those quotes have neglected to include this part:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...th_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.htmlWhile the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
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EndTimes
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There have been some quotes from Catholic teachings on this topic, including from Communion and Stewardship, but somehow those quotes have neglected to include this part:
That remains subjective…still speculative - even subject to changing opinions … and not a definitive Proof… Plus It appears to be at strong odds with the Papal Encyclical Humani Generis by Pope Pius XII …While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
And therefore cannot be required belief for Catholics…
37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x...nts/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
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edwest211
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Partial quotes, out of context, are not convincing.
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EndTimes
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The Argument Stands.
Adam and Eve are indeed the first parents of humans.
Original Sin occurring is the far weightier truth…
Be specific and present a normal discussional response - rather than post a meaningless drive-by which has not countered the quote from a much longer doc.
Adam and Eve are indeed the first parents of humans.
Original Sin occurring is the far weightier truth…
Be specific and present a normal discussional response - rather than post a meaningless drive-by which has not countered the quote from a much longer doc.
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TMC
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LOL, like your partial quote, out of context, from the same document?Partial quotes, out of context, are not convincing.
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TMC
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Communion and Stewardship, and related statements by the last several Popes, certainly do not require Catholics to believe in evolution. But they do establish that belief in evolution is consistent with Catholicism. So whatever reasons there may be to disbelieve evolution, that it is incompatible with Catholicism is simply not one of them. Once you start there, most Catholics end up following the science (as the Church has also done).That remains subjective…still speculative - even subject to changing opinions … and not a definitive Proof… Plus It appears to be at strong odds with the Papal Encyclical Humani Generis by Pope Pius XII …
And therefore cannot be required belief for Catholics…
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edwest211
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That’s inaccurate.
Humani Generis is included.
- Pope John Paul II stated some years ago that “new knowledge leads to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge”(“Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution”1996). In continuity with previous twentieth century papal teaching on evolution (especially Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis ), the Holy Father’s message acknowledges that there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith.
Humani Generis is included.
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EndTimes
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edwest211 That’s inaccurate.
Nope… You’ve missed THE Doc BY St. Pope JPII Himself…includes Humani Generis
MESSAGE TO THE PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES: ON EVOLUTION - JPII
Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution for It Involves Conception of Man
Excerpt:
And to tell the truth, rather than speaking about the theory of evolution, it is more accurate to speak of the theories of evolution. The use of the plural is required here—in part because of the diversity of explanations regarding the mechanism of evolution, and in part because of the diversity of philosophies involved. There are materialist and reductionist theories, as well as spiritualist theories. Here the final judgment is within the competence of philosophy and, beyond that, of theology.
5. The magisterium of the Church takes a direct interest in the question of evolution, because it touches on the conception of man, whom Revelation tells us is created in the image and likeness of God. The conciliar constitution Gaudium et Spes has given us a magnificent exposition of this doctrine, which is one of the essential elements of Christian thought. The Council recalled that “man is the only creature on earth that God wanted for its own sake.” In other words, the human person cannot be subordinated as a means to an end, or as an instrument of either the species or the society; he has a value of his own. He is a person. By this intelligence and his will, he is capable of entering into relationship, of communion, of solidarity, of the gift of himself to others like himself. St. Thomas observed that man’s resemblance to God resides especially in his speculative intellect, because his relationship with the object of his knowledge is like God’s relationship with his creation. (Summa Theologica I- II, q 3, a 5, ad 1) But even beyond that, man is called to enter into a loving relationship with God himself, a relationship which will find its full expression at the end of time, in eternity. Within the mystery of the risen Christ the full grandeur of this vocation is revealed to us. (Gaudium et Spes, 22) It is by virtue of his eternal soul that the whole person, including his body, possesses such great dignity. Pius XII underlined the essential point: if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God (“animas enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides non retimere iubet”). (Humani Generis)
As a result, the theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. They are therefore unable to serve as the basis for the dignity of the human person.
NOTE - Adam and Eve ARE the first parents of Humanity - Yes?
Nope… You’ve missed THE Doc BY St. Pope JPII Himself…includes Humani Generis
MESSAGE TO THE PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES: ON EVOLUTION - JPII
Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution for It Involves Conception of Man
Excerpt:
And to tell the truth, rather than speaking about the theory of evolution, it is more accurate to speak of the theories of evolution. The use of the plural is required here—in part because of the diversity of explanations regarding the mechanism of evolution, and in part because of the diversity of philosophies involved. There are materialist and reductionist theories, as well as spiritualist theories. Here the final judgment is within the competence of philosophy and, beyond that, of theology.
5. The magisterium of the Church takes a direct interest in the question of evolution, because it touches on the conception of man, whom Revelation tells us is created in the image and likeness of God. The conciliar constitution Gaudium et Spes has given us a magnificent exposition of this doctrine, which is one of the essential elements of Christian thought. The Council recalled that “man is the only creature on earth that God wanted for its own sake.” In other words, the human person cannot be subordinated as a means to an end, or as an instrument of either the species or the society; he has a value of his own. He is a person. By this intelligence and his will, he is capable of entering into relationship, of communion, of solidarity, of the gift of himself to others like himself. St. Thomas observed that man’s resemblance to God resides especially in his speculative intellect, because his relationship with the object of his knowledge is like God’s relationship with his creation. (Summa Theologica I- II, q 3, a 5, ad 1) But even beyond that, man is called to enter into a loving relationship with God himself, a relationship which will find its full expression at the end of time, in eternity. Within the mystery of the risen Christ the full grandeur of this vocation is revealed to us. (Gaudium et Spes, 22) It is by virtue of his eternal soul that the whole person, including his body, possesses such great dignity. Pius XII underlined the essential point: if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God (“animas enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides non retimere iubet”). (Humani Generis)
As a result, the theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. They are therefore unable to serve as the basis for the dignity of the human person.
NOTE - Adam and Eve ARE the first parents of Humanity - Yes?
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buffalo
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Micro-evolution (aka adaptation) absolutely fits with science and Catholicism. Macro does not.But they do establish that belief in evolution is consistent with Catholicism.
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whatistrue
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You keep saying this, but it is still not the case. The only difference between Micro and Macro evolution is scale, not mechanism.Micro-evolution (aka adaptation) absolutely fits with science and Catholicism. Macro does not.
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edwest211
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There is a huge difference. And humans and plants are adaptable when dealing with different environmental conditions. In the meantime, the Catholic Church is telling everyone that God had a direct causal role:
"But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” ( Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” ( Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).
"But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” ( Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” ( Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).
- Communion and Stewardship
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whatistrue
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That nice long quote had nothing that I saw to do with the question at hand. The fact remains that both use the same mechanisms and no amount of CCC or ECF or Encyclical quoting will change that. You are allowed to believe in it; the Church has said so.
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edwest211
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No one reading should “hear only what they want to hear.” God is a direct causal agent not “science only.” Don’t use the ‘long quote’ nonsense. It’s not an argument.
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buffalo
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Nope. There is a huge difference. But you can stick with the propaganda.The only difference between Micro and Macro evolution is scale, not mechanism.
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EndTimes
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Only in Darwinian theory is that so…The only difference between Micro and Macro evolution is scale, not mechanism.
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