Design

[rossum]

Existence still requires an explanation.

And your explanation for the existence of your designer/God is…?

You cannot lay down a requirement and then avoid meeting it yourself.

A reason has to be given for existence and what better than love?

How can you have love prior to existence? If existence is not yet in place, then love has no existence. Things can only exist after the origin of existence, obviously. You are looking for a non-existent cause for existence. Good luck with that.

rossum

 

[inocente]

It’s no wonder that Buddhism dominates in countries that are economically backward and impoverished.

Maybe they didn’t get wealthy by taking slaves like Christian countries. And maybe they don’t think a consumer economy is worth being spiritually backward and impoverished.

But even then, if you leave aside the fake news and check on which are the real poorest countries, it’s not Buddhism which dominates.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . How can you have love prior to existence? If existence is not yet in place, then love has no existence. Things can only exist after the origin of existence, obviously. You are looking for a non-existent cause for existence. . .

:twocents:

Existence is not a thing.
It is not an attribute that something has.

Being = Love = Creation
We commune with what is other when we give ourselves over to it.
When we love what is other, it’s beauty ( = being) is revealed.
Consciousness = Compassion

God is Love,
a Trinity of Divine Persons,
mutual Giving of Self to Other
within One perfect Relationality.

The Triune Godhead is the Ground of all being.
All creation, everywhere and every time, is brought forth from the one eternal Spring of existence.

The Word of God became incarnate,
becoming one of us,
sharing in our humanity and
sacrificing Himself
that by His death and resurrection,
He and we through Him,
would die and be reborn to life eternal.

In and through Jesus Christ we are brought into communion within God.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

How can you have love prior to existence? If existence is not yet in place, then love has no existence. Things can only exist after the origin of existence, obviously. You are looking for a non-existent cause for existence. Good luck with that.

rossum

God is Love. Out of his love all existence flows.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Maybe they didn’t get wealthy by taking slaves like Christian countries. And maybe they don’t think a consumer economy is worth being spiritually backward and impoverished.

But even then, if you leave aside **the fake news **and check on which are the real poorest countries, it’s not Buddhism which dominates.

Which fake news are you talking about?

The fake news that Mother Theresa assuaged the suffering of Indian Buddhists and Hindus?

Slavery was an ancient pre-Christian institution that only ended in North America when Christians fought it to death. It still exists in non Christian civilizations but is virtually non-existent in the Christian world.

Whereas in India and China people were always slaves even when they did not know it … slaves to the caste system. Go to India and see for yourself why Christianity took so long to take root there.

 

[tonyrey]

Except God!? What about this?: Things has been existing since the beginning.

God is existence! The Jews had the remarkable insight that the Creator is “He Who Is”, i.e the Necessary Being without Whom nothing would exist…

 

[tonyrey]

And your explanation for the existence of your designer/God is…?

You cannot lay down a requirement and then avoid meeting it yourself.

How can you have love prior to existence? If existence is not yet in place, then love has no existence. Things can only exist after the origin of existence, obviously. You are looking for a non-existent cause for existence. Good luck with that.

rossum

The only alternatives are:

1. Everything has always existed (which is absurd because everyone agrees there has been development). An infinite regress is not an explanation but an evasion.
2. Everything has come from nothing (which is equally absurd).

 

[Charlemagne_III]

God is existence! The Jews had the remarkable insight that the Creator is “He Who Is”, i.e the Necessary Being without Whom nothing would exist…

The Greeks were decidedly polytheistic as the first Greek tribes were joined together in to a nation and their individual gods were consolidated into a pantheon of gods. While Zeus was the most prominent god of the Greeks, he was by no means the favorite of all Greeks, and even his much vaunted power was subject to the Fates. This was a childlike religion in which the gods represented facets of nature more than anything else and reflected very much human personalities and faults along with human virtues.

The Jews raised theology to an entirely more philosophical level and made Creation of all that is their first object of theological interest in Genesis. There is no comparable theology in any of the world’s religions, and certainly no theology like Genesis that makes of Creation an event remarkably consistent with, if not identical with, developments in modern science over the last two centuries.

 

[tonyrey]

Which fake news are you talking about?

The fake news that Mother Theresa assuaged the suffering of Indian Buddhists and Hindus?

Slavery was an ancient pre-Christian institution that only ended in North America when Christians fought it to death. It still exists in non Christian civilizations but is virtually non-existent in the Christian world.

Whereas in India and China people were always slaves even when they did not know it … slaves to the caste system. Go to India and see for yourself why Christianity took so long to take root there.

There is domestic slavery in the UK which is hardly a Christian nation now that 48.5% have no religion and 7.7% belong to non-Christian religions.

 

[tonyrey]

God is Love. Out of his love all existence flows.

Indeed. Love is the greatest creative force which unites and inspires more than anything else. It is the source of joy, peace, harmony and fulfilment without which life is empty and meaningless. It liberates us from ourselves and overcomes the power of evil which is doomed to failure because it is not only destructive but also self-destructive whereas love is positive and fertile.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Indeed. Love is the greatest creative force which unites and inspires more than anything else. It is the source of joy, peace, harmony and fulfilment without which life is empty and meaningless. It liberates us from ourselves and overcomes the power of evil which is doomed to failure because it is not only destructive but also self-destructive whereas love is positive and fertile.

Exactly why we associate love with the creative act of bringing children into the world.

He did indeed make us in his image and likeness.

 

[rossum]

Slavery was an ancient pre-Christian institution that only ended in North America when Christians fought it to death.

And other Christians fought to the death to retain it. Both sides in the pro- and anti-slavery arguments leading up to the ACW and in the war itself were overwhelmingly Christian.

rossum

 

[rossum]

The only alternatives are:

1. Everything has always existed (which is absurd because everyone agrees there has been development). An infinite regress is not an explanation but an evasion.

An infinite regression is not absurd. The integers are an infinite regression: … -3, -2, -1, 0 , 1, 2, 3, … Are the integers absurd? There is no end to the series in either direction, yet the integers are useful, not absurd.

rossum

 

[tonyrey]

And other Christians fought to the death to retain it. Both sides in the pro- and anti-slavery arguments leading up to the ACW and in the war itself were overwhelmingly Christian.

That was because the population was overwhelmingly - nominally - Christian! It doesn’t follow that they were true Christians who love your neighbour as yourself…

 

[tonyrey]

1. Everything has always existed (which is absurd because everyone agrees there has been development). An infinite regress is not an explanation but an evasion

It doesn’t follow that the existence of the universe is due to an infinite regression! Otherwise the principle of causality would be worthless and the Theory of Everything would be unscientific. If you gave that explanation to astronomers and cosmologists they would laugh at you…

 

[tonyrey]

Exactly why we associate love with the creative act of bringing children into the world.

He did indeed make us in his image and likeness.

I know a young woman who was very miserable because she couldn’t have a child. After seven years of frustration she finally gave birth to a girl and her joy was unbounded! The miracle we take for granted - like our power of reason and self-control and so many other things - had occurred. The hypothesis that the immense value and beauty of life is due to the random combinations of mindless molecules and fortuitous mutations of genes is preposterous - and self-destructive into the bargain. Buddhists believe in spiritual reality but they cannot explain how it originated.

 

[tonyrey]

The Greeks were decidedly polytheistic as the first Greek tribes were joined together in to a nation and their individual gods were consolidated into a pantheon of gods. While Zeus was the most prominent god of the Greeks, he was by no means the favorite of all Greeks, and even his much vaunted power was subject to the Fates. This was a childlike religion in which the gods represented facets of nature more than anything else and reflected very much human personalities and faults along with human virtues.

The Jews raised theology to an entirely more philosophical level and made Creation of all that is their first object of theological interest in Genesis. There is no comparable theology in any of the world’s religions, and certainly no theology like Genesis that makes of Creation an event remarkably consistent with, if not identical with, developments in modern science over the last two centuries.

:clapping: It is very unlikely a member of a primitive tribe that believed in animal sacrifice and retribution could have such insight into the contingency of the world and the need for a **personal **Necessary Being. Moses was obviously inspired…

 

[tonyrey]

That was because the population was overwhelmingly - nominally - Christian! It doesn’t follow that they were true Christians who love your neighbour as yourself…

Correction: It doesn’t follow that all of them were true Christians who love your neighbour as yourself…

 

[Aloysium]

The timeline of the creation of the universe has been developed by going backwards in our mind to the beginning that is thought to have been a singularity. Scientists, Stephen Hawking in this case, say such things as “the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang”. Time flows in a forward direction, so what this really means is that everything that forms the physical structure of the universe did not exist at the beginning. It came into existence one step at a time. In addition to all these mechanistic processes, we have the mathematics and rational mind that allows for our capacity to know this. We have joy and suffering, meaning and purpose. We can love. There is no doubt in my mind, regardless of whatever other truths have been discerned and realized, that the Word of God was revealed to the Jewish people, from whom Jesus Christ, His incarnation, would enter into this world, establish His Church, die for our sIns and be resurrected, that all of us be granted the gift of knowing God. This is only possible through love.

 

[rossum]

That was because the population was overwhelmingly - nominally - Christian! It doesn’t follow that they were true Christians who love your neighbour as yourself…

Drop the “true Christians” please. For the majority of its history, Christianity has allowed slavery. It is only in the last 300 years or so that things have changed. If anything the pro-slavery faction has the greater weight of Christian history on its side.

Since everyone gets to define their own version of “true Christian” the phrase becomes meaningless. There are plenty of Protestants who will tell you that Catholics are not “true Christians” for example.

rossum