Design

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Dawkins doesn’t speak for thousands of Catholic scientists. The ‘evolutionists’ among them alone may be more than there are Catholic ID fans.
Argumentum ad populum.
Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God is not ‘a magician with a magic wand’ - independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-9822514.html
NB:
The theory of the Big Bang is compatible with the Catholic Church’s teaching on creation and belief in both is possible, Pope Francis has said. The Pope insisted that God was responsible for the Big Bang, from which all life then evolved.
The Big Bang - the theory that the universe was born in a cosmic explosion about 13.7 billion years ago and has expanded and evolved since - “doesn’t contradict the intervention of a divine Creator, but demands it,” the Pope said.
The beginning of the world was not “the work of chaos” but part of **a divine plan **by the Creator, he said.
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11192802/Pope-Francis-says-Big-Bang-theory-and-evolution-compatible-with-divine-Creator.html

The Pope believes evolution has occurred by Design rather than Chance. Nor does he believe God never intervenes:
The prayers of the faithful, not the pope, bishops, priests or nuns, have the power to make miracles happen in the most impossible situations, Pope Francis has said.
catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/01/13/pope-prayers-of-the-faithful-not-the-clergy-can-make-miracles-happen/
 
If only we meant the same thing
when we used the word evolution,
I don’t know,
at least that would be something,
I think.
It does makes it easier to argue
the way things are,
I suppose.
I personally don’t like the word
not only because i have no idea what the person means
but mainly because it suggests a process,
one that goes on by itself,
which all this here does not,
being brought into each moment,
as it is,
a stroke of God’s heavenly brush.
👍 For theists evolution means development which is not entirely random and has occurred by Design not Chance! Nor did the laws of nature emerge accidentally. As so often, the truth lies between two extremes: there is a random element in the unfolding of events but the entire process is controlled by God who is not incapable of intervening when necessary. Miracles are an essential part of the divine plan as far as orthodox Christians are concerned…
 
inocente;14551651:
Dawkins doesn’t speak for thousands of Catholic scientists. The ‘evolutionists’ among them alone may be more than there are Catholic ID fans.
Argumentum ad populum.
The implication being you’re arguing against them. As I said, the Discovery Institute is funded largely by evangelicals, and it has successfully created a schism among Catholics.

But I wasn’t claiming they are correct anyway. I was pointing out, again, that just as you called ‘evolutionists’ skeptics in post #4, Dawkins does not speak for the many Catholic ‘evolutionists’.

The Pope was made it clear that God is not the magician of ID. The web page linked in the OP is pseudo-religious nonsense. The linked video is an advert for a tv channel. There is no philosophical argument, just an appeal to sentimentality.

But if people still want to believe in ID, fine. Just please renew your efforts to avoid thinking of all the many Catholics who don’t subscribe to your particular theology as materialists.
 
First, the human body is not well designed. It contains errors inherited from other species, like the failty GULO pseudogene, which is why we are susceptible to scurvy. Since chimps and many other primates have the same error (while non-primate mammals do not) it is obvious that the designer copied an error into our genome when a correct version was available,

Second, you should be aware that irreducible complexity can evolve. See Behe and Snoke (2004) Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residues. Yes, that is the same Professor Behe.

Third, Google “cdesign proponentsists”. The Discovery Institute is an attempt at a legal end-run around the law preventing the teaching of Creationism in American public schools. It replaced “God” with “Designer” and refuses to specify any dates or details. The DI does not do science, as shown by the Wedge Strategy document.

rossum
To properly evaluate whether it is a good design or not one has to know the purpose of the design. Bad design does not invalidate design.

Indeed, genetic entropy is going on. It is no surprise that deleterious mutations are present. Yet the human species still survives.

Stick to the arguments. Disparaging a source of truth is not constructive.
 
I think it would be revealing to this particular crowd to identify some vestigial structures that still exist in our bodies because we have yet to fully “evolve” them away. They are the remains of anatomy/physiology we used when we were not yet Homo Sapiens.
  1. The Appendix - When we were more plant-based in our diet
  2. Human Tail Bones - When we used to live in trees
  3. Wisdom Teeth - Our jaws used to be big enough to accommodate them
  4. Wiggling your ears - as to turn a more top-mounted ear to listen for predators
  5. This pink blob in the inner corner of your eye is what remains of a third “lid” like you see in your cat and capuchin monkeys. It serves zero purpose today.
This list is by no means exhaustive. It just contains the more obvious ones you can observe on yourself right now.

His great-times-1,600,000 grandfather and your great-times-800,000 grandfather (you have a longer life-cycle) are likely the same dude. I bet his name was “Merle”.
We have found purpose for the supposed vestigial organs.
 
Dawkins doesn’t speak for thousands of Catholic scientists. The ‘evolutionists’ among them alone may be more than there are Catholic ID fans.

Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God is not ‘a magician with a magic wand’ - independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-9822514.html

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/october/documents/papa-francesco_20141027_plenaria-accademia-scienze.html
Design is not magic.
 
We are now well aware that Natural Selections is a conservative process and Random Mutations are deleterious.

As we speak the Neo-Darwinists are scrambling as their foundation is collapsing.
 
Bad design does not invalidate design.
Of course not, but it does invalidate a perfect omnimax designer. It is possible that Kolubeto from planet Zargon IV had an off day when designing primates, but omnimax Gods do not have off days.
Indeed, genetic entropy is going on. It is no surprise that deleterious mutations are present. Yet the human species still survives.
The point of the GULO-P pseudogene is that it occurs in many primate species, so all those different species share the same error. Either the designer deliberately copied the error into multiple species, or all those species inherited the error from a single common ancestor. Such shared errors are evidence for common descent, in just the same way a Bible manuscript can be traced back to an original version by shared differences. Is this an Alexandrian copy or an Antiochene copy?
Stick to the arguments. Disparaging a source of truth is not constructive.
The Discovery Institute is not a source of truth, it is a source of political propaganda. Anything from that source needs to be treated very sceptically.

rossum
 
We have found purpose for the supposed vestigial organs.
That is not the definition of a vestigial organ. They no longer have their original function (as seen in earlier ancestors) but have been adapted to serve a different function.

rossum
 
Design is not magic.
Irreducible complexity is most definitely magic: it claims that something can only be the result of parts coming together through mysterious or supernatural forces, not progressively by natural means. By definition, that’s magic.
 
We are now well aware that Natural Selections is a conservative process and Random Mutations are deleterious.
You are misinformed here. Natural selection is not conservative, it acts to reduce the proportion of deleterious alleles in a population and to increase the proportion of beneficial alleles in a population. It acts to change the proportions of alleles, not to conserve them.

Random Mutations are about 90% neutral, neither beneficial not deleterious. The majority of the remainder are deleterious and a few are beneficial. Again your source has shown itself to be unreliable. I suggest you find a better source.
As we speak the Neo-Darwinists are scrambling as their foundation is collapsing.
As I said, your source is misinforming you. Predictions of the imminent demise of Darwinism have been around for a very long time. See The Imminent Demise of Evolution.

rossum
 
Irreducible complexity is most definitely magic: it claims that something can only be the result of parts coming together through mysterious or supernatural forces, not progressively by natural means. By definition, that’s magic.
I disagree. A mousetrap is Irreducibly Complex by Behe’s definition and one can be assembled without magic.

The problem with IC is that it is not a barrier to evolution, as Behe initially claimed. IC systems cannot evolve by direct routes, for the reasons that Behe explained. However, they can evolve by indirect routes, as Lenski, Behe and others have shown.

If a mousetrap is IC, then a Venus Flytrap is also IC, and Venus Flytraps have evolved (from something like a modern Sundew) by an indirect route.

rossum
 
Of course not, but it does invalidate a perfect omnimax designer. It is possible that Kolubeto from planet Zargon IV had an off day when designing primates, but omnimax Gods do not have off days.

The point of the GULO-P pseudogene is that it occurs in many primate species, so all those different species share the same error. Either the designer deliberately copied the error into multiple species, or all those species inherited the error from a single common ancestor. Such shared errors are evidence for common descent, in just the same way a Bible manuscript can be traced back to an original version by shared differences. Is this an Alexandrian copy or an Antiochene copy?

The Discovery Institute is not a source of truth, it is a source of political propaganda. Anything from that source needs to be treated very sceptically.

rossum
God lifted some design protections as a result of the fall. Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts that were revoked.
 
Of course not, but it does invalidate a perfect omnimax designer. It is possible that Kolubeto from planet Zargon IV had an off day when designing primates, but omnimax Gods do not have off days.

The point of the GULO-P pseudogene is that it occurs in many primate species, so all those different species share the same error. Either the designer deliberately copied the error into multiple species, or all those species inherited the error from a single common ancestor. Such shared errors are evidence for common descent, in just the same way a Bible manuscript can be traced back to an original version by shared differences. Is this an Alexandrian copy or an Antiochene copy?

The Discovery Institute is not a source of truth, it is a source of political propaganda. Anything from that source needs to be treated very sceptically.

rossum
Or this variant is present in the 500 or so conserved genes that life has.
 
The Discovery Institute is not a source of truth, it is a source of political propaganda. Anything from that source needs to be treated very sceptically.

rossum
all sources should be viewed skeptically, even yours. Have you been keeping up with the failures of the peer review process?
 
That is not the definition of a vestigial organ. They no longer have their original function (as seen in earlier ancestors) but have been adapted to serve a different function.

rossum
Not totally correct. However, the key point you made is they adapted. Yes, we are marvelously designed to adapt. 👍
 
Irreducible complexity is most definitely magic: it claims that something can only be the result of parts coming together through mysterious or supernatural forces, not progressively by natural means. By definition, that’s magic.
No, it can be designed with purpose.

I have yet to see the proven evolutionary pathways for the blood clotting system as well as the ATP synthase motor. It just had to happen right?
 
You are misinformed here. Natural selection is not conservative, it acts to reduce the proportion of deleterious alleles in a population and to increase the proportion of beneficial alleles in a population. It acts to change the proportions of alleles, not to conserve them.

Random Mutations are about 90% neutral, neither beneficial not deleterious. The majority of the remainder are deleterious and a few are beneficial. Again your source has shown itself to be unreliable. I suggest you find a better source.

As I said, your source is misinforming you. Predictions of the imminent demise of Darwinism have been around for a very long time. See The Imminent Demise of Evolution.

rossum
Have you been following the Royal Society?
 
I disagree. A mousetrap is Irreducibly Complex by Behe’s definition and one can be assembled without magic.

The problem with IC is that it is not a barrier to evolution, as Behe initially claimed. IC systems cannot evolve by direct routes, for the reasons that Behe explained. However, they can evolve by indirect routes, as Lenski, Behe and others have shown.

If a mousetrap is IC, then a Venus Flytrap is also IC, and Venus Flytraps have evolved (from something like a modern Sundew) by an indirect route.

rossum
You are ignoring the specified complexity portion of the argument.
 
God lifted some design protections as a result of the fall. Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts that were revoked.
Your interpretation of the Bible is your interpretation of the Bible. Unless you have DNA sequences form Adam, Eve or a close relative then you have no evidence. Remember also that if Adam’s DNA was too far away from modern human DNA then Adam would not be human. He must have been closer to modern human DNA than, say, a chimpanzee in order to be classified as Homo sapiens. Too much difference and he would be a different species.

rossum
 
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