Design

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I’m having difficulty in determining if your appeal to semantic is occurring because you genuinely don’t understand the terms in play or if you’re just being obtuse.
Meh.
As gently as I can, in “formation”, the objects from which the formation is formed still had to be created. Additionally, Genesis does not comment in any way on the process of formation.
Yes, that is consistent by the definition of formation in my vocabulary (bold part). In geneses, it is clearly mentioned that the earth was created which is different than formation otherwise Jesus would use formation.
 
An irrational response.
Yes, that is consistent by the definition of formation in my vocabulary (bold part). In geneses, it is clearly mentioned that the earth was created which is different than formation otherwise Jesus would use formation.
For Jesus Creation implies formation:
“Consider the lilies, **how **they grow: they labour not, neither do they spin. But I say to you, not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these.”
Luke 12:27
 
To reject Design amounts to believing God doesn’t exist or has no plan. It’s as simple as happening to believe the universe just happens to exist for no reason or purpose even though it has happened to produce freaks of nature which happen to be occasionally reasonable and purposeful - and happen to realise nothing makes sense including their view that that they happen to realise nothing makes sense… :whacky:
 
To reject Design amounts to believing God doesn’t exist or has no plan. It’s as simple as happening to believe the universe just happens to exist for no reason or purpose even though it has happened to produce freaks of nature which happen to be occasionally reasonable and purposeful - and happen to realise nothing makes sense including their view that that they happen to realise nothing makes sense… :whacky:
Pleasantly reminiscent of the paradoxical G.K. Chesterton! 😃
 
To reject Design amounts to believing God doesn’t exist or has no plan.
To reject Design amounts to believing Vishnu doesn’t exist or has a very subtle plan that is beyond human comprehension.

You are giving us a very restricted choice here. There are a lot more options than you are proposing.

rossum
 
To reject Design amounts to believing Vishnu doesn’t exist or has a very subtle plan that is beyond human comprehension.

You are giving us a very restricted choice here. There are a lot more options than you are proposing.
You need to explain how Vishnu is related to Design and present a list of the other options which explain the existence of rational beings…
 
You need to explain how Vishnu is related to Design
Vishnu made the universe, it says so in the Bhagavad Gita. All those indicators of design the the Discovery Institute keep finding merely go to show the design of the universe by Vishnu.
and present a list of the other options which explain the existence of rational beings…
Is your God a rational being? You can start by proposing the options which explain the origin of that particular rational being. It seems rather silly to explain the origin of rational beings by starting with a rational being. That is hardly a valid explanation, is it?

rossum
 
A belated happy Easter, Charlie. I thought pointing out the self-defeating nature of the non-Design hypothesis should be made entertaining… 😉
Right back atcha! 👍

It’s always entertaining to hear people talk as if God’s powers were less than theirs.

If we can intelligently design, and God cannot, we are more creatively intelligent than God? :confused:
 
Vishnu made the universe, it says so in the Bhagavad Gita.

All those indicators of design the the Discovery Institute keep finding merely go to show the design of the universe by Vishnu…
In that case Vishnu is the Buddhist equivalent of God in other religions.
Is your God a rational being? You can start by proposing the options which explain the origin of that particular rational being. It seems rather silly to explain the origin of rational beings by starting with a rational being. That is hardly a valid explanation, is it?
It is a more adequate explanation than starting with an irrational being! The Creator would hardly lack such a powerful attribute…
 
Right back atcha! 👍

It’s always entertaining to hear people talk as if God’s powers were less than theirs.

If we can intelligently design, and God cannot, we are more creatively intelligent than God? :confused:
They violate the principle of adequate explanation as well as being incredibly presumptuous… 🤷
 
It is a more adequate explanation than starting with an irrational being! The Creator would hardly lack such a powerful attribute…
So, you have no explanation for the origin of the first rational being. You merely assume that it exists and proceed from there.

You will forgive me if I do not find that convincing.

rossum
 
So, you have no explanation for the origin of the first rational being. You merely assume that it exists and proceed from there.

You will forgive me if I do not find that convincing.

rossum
“the first rational being” is a misnomer because it implies the Creator is in the same category as creatures located in time and space. God is not a member of a finite series but the Necessary Being without whose ontological support nothing would exist. The alternatives are to believe in an infinite regress of physical causes - which evades the problem of contingency - or a universe which emerged from nothing - which violates both the principle of causality and the law of conservation of energy.

You will forgive me if I do not find those explanations convincing. 🙂

One Supreme Being is the most adequate, coherent, intelligible, economical and fertile interpretation of reality because it corresponds to the way we think and behave in a orderly universe which enables us to live as creative, rational, purposeful beings with a capacity for love, moral discernment and self-determination.
 
So, you have no explanation for the origin of the first rational being. You merely assume that it exists and proceed from there.

You will forgive me if I do not find that convincing.

rossum
You say you are a Buddhist; try this.

If it is more than just a pretentious, anti-intellectual comment or simply nonsensical playing with ideas, the claim that there is no ultimate truth implies there exists a dream detached from the reality of which it is a part. The subject and object, if they exist at all, can never meet and shadows are all we will ever know. There are no explanations, only the shuffling of images into a form that stabilizes the dream, preventing its fragmentation into chaos.

A dream, but no dreamer may be a convenient way to put it together after some tragedy strikes and all that one thought was true is found to be lies. But, someone is hurting, and that hurt goes to the core of existence. So, there is at least one undeniable truth - suffering. And, there exists a framework to existence that makes suffering inevitable but fixable. If one lives one’s life according to the “rules of the game”, detaching oneself from the snares that bring on the pain, it is possible to find the peace and joy of enlightenment. There is a Truth beyond all truths.

“Outside” the contents of individual consciousness, there exists its source, the structure that defines them. That structure is set, eternal, unchanging in the existence of each moment. That structure and the Mind who forms it are one, right here and now, where nothing ever changes and all comes into existence as a joyous symphony of infinite beings emerging and interacting, ultimately to know the glory that is creation and its Creator, united in love.

You cannot be convinced unless you walk the walk.
 
So, you have no explanation for the origin of the first rational being.
Why would there be an origin for the first rational being? God by definition is the eternal rational being.

Would it not be for you to provide an explanation why God is **not **the eternal rational being?
 
“the first rational being” is a misnomer because it implies the Creator is in the same category as creatures located in time and space.
Creatures in time and space exist. Your God is not in the same category, therefore your God does not exist. You have already implicitly asserted that your God is not rational. Some creatures are alive; are you telling us that your God is not alive?

Humans are designers and creators, so you God can be neither designer nor creator.

You will have to ditch your Bible as well, since all the words used in that book to describe your God are categories located in time and space, since all human languages are located in time and space.

You have just destroyed all possibility of discussing God. Anything that humans can do, and has a word attached, is impossible for your God.

You need to think this point through more carefully.

• Do humans exist: yes or no?

• Does God exist: yes or no?

• Did you give the same answer to both questions?

rossum
 
the claim that there is no ultimate truth implies there exists a dream detached from the reality of which it is a part.
Not a dream. A mirage is not a dream, but is due to the imperfections in our sensory systems (brain included).

If you claim that an ultimate truth exists, show me your ultimate proof that your claimed ultimate truth actually is an ultimate truth and that you are not mistaken.
You cannot be convinced unless you walk the walk.
Which is why I meditate. That helps me distinguish between what is really out there and the various internal mirages we all develop.

rossum
 
Why would there be an origin for the first rational being? God by definition is the eternal rational being.
Above, post #624, tonyrey asked me for my explanation of the existence of rational beings. I was referring to that question.
Would it not be for you to provide an explanation why God is **not **the eternal rational being?
God changes so God cannot be eternal. Anything which changes cannot be eternal. Is God still parting the Red Sea for Moses today? No He is not. Therefore God has changed and is not eternal.

Rational? God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. When Pharaoh did what God made him do, then God killed a whole load of firstborn Egyptians who had nothing to do with what either God or Pharaoh had done. Is that rational? “I made Pharaoh do something that annoyed me so I killed a whole bunch of other people, babies included, for something they didn’t do.” That does not seem rational to me.

rossum
 
. . . Which is why I meditate. That helps me distinguish between what is really out there and the various internal mirages we all develop.

rossum
Here you are combating contradictory internal mirages.
That’s why you can’t hear what is beyond the impressions that words create in your mind.

Meditation 👍, but under some sort of authentic guidance.
 
Above, post #624, tonyrey asked me for my explanation of the existence of rational beings. I was referring to that question.

God changes so God cannot be eternal. Anything which changes cannot be eternal. Is God still parting the Red Sea for Moses today? No He is not. Therefore God has changed and is not eternal.

Rational? God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. When Pharaoh did what God made him do, then God killed a whole load of firstborn Egyptians who had nothing to do with what either God or Pharaoh had done. Is that rational? “I made Pharaoh do something that annoyed me so I killed a whole bunch of other people, babies included, for something they didn’t do.” That does not seem rational to me.

rossum
Should not have to explain to you that I am still me even if I change by having children.

You should perhaps be very careful about the presumption that you can judge God’s actions, and more careful about how God will judge your actions?

It is the Lord’s right to give life and take it away. The Lord can never be charged with irrational murder, as you seem to imply.
 
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