Despair is warranted -- if

[Mijoy2]

What Saints Said About Hell | Spirit Daily Blog

Although we are to believe the Saints (those elevated to sainthood by the Church) are in heaven, I do not believe we are to think they have all spoken infallibly.

However, are we to believe they are all saints, yet terribly mistaken about Catholic theology? Either we are to believe their words are credible or we are to believe they are greatly exaggerated or, in error.

If they are greatly exaggerated, I do not find that too saintly, if in error, The Church has elevated a great number of rather ignorant individuals to sainthood. If credible, despair, seems warranted.

Before anyone responds stating these words are credible yet still, we are not to despair, please look at the following: 3 (persons in purgatory) / 60000 (deaths) = .0005% or all but 1 out of every 20000 people are going to eternal fire. - derived from St. Leonard of Port Maurice quote

Despair is warranted if we are to put any stock in many of these claims. Almost seems ridiculous. And we wonder why much of the world finds faith nonsense.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As an initial matter, that article is a bit misleading. It contains quotes from Scripture. Scripture is part of the Deposit of Faith and Catholics are bound to believe it as the Word of God, interpreted by the Magisterium (not personally interpreted by individuals). Scripture is not “what a saint said”.

With respect to the quotes that are actually from saints and not from scripture, you are correct that saints are not infallible, they do make mistakes, their private revelations from God aren’t part of the deposit of faith, and we don’t have to believe everything that comes out of their mouth.

In any event, I see no reason for despair. If you make your best effort to follow God’s commandments, have a relationship with God/ Jesus, and trust in Him, then why despair? Look around you and see just how many people in the world are paying zero attention to God, don’t believe he exists or don’t care, never pray, never think about faith, and are basically living life for their own selfish pleasure, doing what they want and caring only about themselves and maybe a few close loved ones and friends. Pretty easy to see that the saints are probably on to something. But if you don’t fall into that group of people who just don’t care, then why would you personally despair?

And yes, it’s easy to dismiss something as “nonsense” if you’re not interested in making an effort to do better with your life and just want an excuse to keep on eating, drinking, partying, fornicating, and generally doing whatever feels good to you. But hey, it’s your life.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Saints aside, an important rendering of the same saying about a narrow gate, or door, is found in Matthew. It’s at the very end of the list from that link.

It says, “And those who find it are few.” That implies that it needs to be sought. Another thing important to know is that the “wide gate” was the gate to the city which many passed through. The “narrow gate” was the gate to the courtyard of an individual’s home. That gate needs to be found after you’ve entered through the city gate if your seeking out a certain individual’s house.

Related to all this are the verses that directly follow the verse about the “narrow door” in Luke. It’s a situation in which someone is knocking on Jesus’ door, or gate, trying to get in.

Strive to enter through the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough. After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say to you in reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’

 

[Vico]

…
The Church has elevated a great number of rather ignorant individuals to sainthood.
…

An ingnorant person can certainly be a saint for which a final state of sanctifying grace is the only requirement. The Catechism has this on invincible ignorance:

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him.

 

[angel12]

I do not find that too saintly, if in error, The Church has elevated a great number of rather ignorant individuals to sainthood. If credible, despair, seems warranted.

Having a personal opinion on something that is not specifically addressed by Church dogma – such as how many people are going to hell – is not “ignorance.” That’s rather insulting.
And having said personal opinion doesn’t speak to whether a person lived a holy life, which is what canonization says. You’re making some huge, unwarranted leaps here, for reasons that escape me.

 

[Mijoy2]

Having a personal opinion on something that is not specifically addressed by Church dogma – such as how many people are going to hell – is not “ignorance.” That’s rather insulting.

I believe for most of the quotes, they were stated from a perspective of authority, not opinion. BTW my intent is never to insult. My apologies if I came across otherwise.

And having said personal opinion doesn’t speak to whether a person lived a holy life, which is what canonization says. You’re making some huge, unwarranted leaps here, for reasons that escape me.

I was not questioning the saints “holy life” in any way. I was simply addressing the logic of the numbers (if true). The numbers imply that even if one attempts to live according to Catholic teaching and attempts to remain free (or at least often repent of) mortal sin, 19999 people out of 20000 fail somehow at this attempt. I find dramatic inconsistency with Catholic teaching and these quotes (at least most of them).

I realize (fully realize) that the Church makes no mention of the ratio of saved vs damned. However the Church (via my interpretation at least) suggests that ones odds of going to heaven are fairly good if one repents, makes great effort to avoid mortal sin and preserves to the end. I can’t muster the math that suggests the vast majority fail in this regard.

The two things are at odds with one another.

 

[angel12]

I realize (fully realize) that the Church makes no mention of the ratio of saved vs damned. However the Church (via my interpretation at least) suggests that ones odds of going to heaven are fairly good if one repents, makes great effort to avoid mortal sin and preserves to the end. I can’t muster the math that suggests the vast majority fail in this regard.

The two things are at odds with one another.

If something is at odds with Church teaching, then you should know which way to go. There’s nothing in the Catechism that says “the vast majority fail.”

 

[Mijoy2]

Wish I could share your confidence.

Seems we revere the words of the Saints when they suit the needs of the faithful, yet we disregard them when they contradict the interpreted teachings of the Church.

I see contraction.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

However the Church (via my interpretation at least) suggests that ones odds of going to heaven are fairly good if one repents, makes great effort to avoid mortal sin and preserves to the end.

And as I said, how many people do you know who genuinely do that?

But even if you have faith that lots of people will be saved, fine, you disagree with St. So-and-so. You’re allowed to do that. Why are you making a big deal out of it? Do you think we should erase from history the words of all Saints that you disagree with? Presumably you’re not saying the words of Holy Scripture are wrong.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I have one thing I’d like to post on this subject.

Like you seem to, I believe that the greater part of souls are lost. I hope this is not the case, especially since I am a sinful person who does not pray well, but like you I do not see how to conclude otherwise given the testimonies we have.

However, it is also important to realize that even the lesser part of the whole of humanity is still a great many souls.

In one particular testimony, Cry of a Lost Soul, a damned woman is forced to speak about Hell and the nature of her own damnation. She says this:

"Prayer is the first step towards God. And it is the decisive step. Especially prayer to her who is the Mother of Christ, whose name we never pronounce. Devotion to her rescues from the devil numberless souls whom sin would infallibly give to him."

"Numberless souls"

Similarly, there is another testimony where the visionary looks out over purgatory and saw an uncountable multitude of souls undergoing purification. (Sorry, I can’t remember who this was off the top of my head.)

My point is this. The reason that the Saints, and even Christ himself, seem to indicate that few will be saved is because so few people bother themselves with Him. So few people put in effort to stop sinning. If you are putting in the effort, if you are praying, and fighting to stop sinning, and trying always to grow in love of God, then you can have a reasonable assurance of your own salvation.

And so, rather than focusing on everyone else, or the numbers, or anything like that, you need to focus on you, and on God.

Before anyone responds stating these words are credible yet still, we are not to despair, please look at the following: 3 (persons in purgatory) / 60000 (deaths) = .0005% or all but 1 out of every 20000 people are going to eternal fire. - derived from St. Leonard of Port Maurice quote

Also, I wanted to touch on this.

Where were all those souls coming from, and when? I think we can reasonably assume that if 20,000 monks from religious orders were to be placed in a room, or 20,000 dedicated family men, the number of the elect would be far greater than in a group of 20,000 gamblers from the streets of Las Vegas, or 20,000 atheists who cared nothing for God.

 

[Mijoy2]

And so, rather than focusing on everyone else, or the numbers, or anything like that, you need to focus on you , and on God .

I appreciate your response(s) thank you.

I’ll attempt to answer briefly, and hopefully this answers the question from the quote below as well

I am not concerned for my sake. Of course I am not suggesting I am one of the “few”. I am often deeply saddened by members of my family who are apparently disregarding their faith. This is where my pain comes from. I do pray unceasingly for them, but thus far I see no change. I have learned that I cannot talk them into a faith.

This is why I am “Making a big deal of it”. When I read that most will be damned, my math oriented brain tends to feel more hopeless for many of those I love. They are wonderful caring loving people. They just do not understand as most you do the teachings of the church regarding mortal sins, missing mass and some of the other “sins” that the vast majority of people do not consider sinful. It would be easier to understand if they were not loving parents, law abiding citizens, warm kind and big heart-ed people. I hope this helps answer the question. It’s my biggest deal.

Why are you making a big deal out of it?

 

[PetraG]

Our Lord’s answer totally went past the matter of how many would be saved.
He pretty much said to look to yourself and not to fall into presumption.

We can’t presume that all will be saved, so we have the right to despair? No.

And we wonder why much of the world finds faith nonsense.

“Much of the world” is doing its best to put Hell on earth and they’re talking about nonsense?

I am often deeply saddened by members of my family who are apparently disregarding their faith. This is where my pain comes from. I do pray unceasingly for them, but thus far I see no change. I have learned that I cannot talk them into a faith.

This is why I am “Making a big deal of it”.

Understood, both on the worry and the math-oriented brain.

Consider, instead, that while we were still in sin, while humankind was still busily turning away from God, God took the narrow way of relationship and came to gather up His children by becoming one of them.

We cannot possibly be more soliticious for the welfare of any soul than their Maker is. Why are we put into the peril of being lost? Because it is necessary in order to realize the freely-chosen relationship of love for which we were made. We couldn’t be poured into that like wax into a mold.

At the end of the story of the prodigal son, who was still left outside? The elder brother, who did everything right. We never find out what he decides. We never find out what the rich young man who went away sad. We have to resign ourselves to not knowing how it works out for everybody. We have to have faith that in the end we will know that nothing could be more just and more loving than what God has chosen to do. We can trust in that, we can choose to accept faith.

"Can we watch the growth of these cities and not do something to purify our own hearts? When man and his money and machines move out into the desert, and dwell there, not fighting the devil as Christ did, but believing in his promises of power and wealth, and adoring his angelic wisdom, then the desert itself moves everywhere. Everywhere is desert. Everywhere is solitude in which man must do penance and fight the adversary and purify his own heart in the grace of God.

"The desert is the home of depair. And despair, now, is everywhere. Let us not think that our interior solitude consists in the acceptance of defeat. We cannot escape anything by consenting tacitly to be defeated. Despair is an abyss without bottom. Do not think to close it by consenting to it and tryinig to forget you have consented.

“This, then, is our desert: to live facing despair, but not to consent. To trample it down under hope in the Cross. To wage war against despair unceasingly. That war is our wilderness. If we wage it courageously, we will find Christ at our side. If we cannot face it, we will never find Him.”
–Thomas Merton, Thoughts in Solitude

 

[vern_humphrey]

Despair is warranted if we are to put any stock in many of these claims. Almost seems ridiculous. And we wonder why much of the world finds faith nonsense.

Is God dead?

If not, what reason do we have for despair?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Then you should just pray fervently for them.
I was a “bad Catholic” for about 30+ years. My mother prayed for me. I’m not going to say I’m awesome now, but I’m definitely doing better.

I couldn’t get my husband to convert before he suddenly died, but I have faith he and his kin are in Heaven or at least saved. I have done all the prayers and devotions I can to try and help.

I also pray for those who have no one to pray for them. Even if I can just help one person a little, it’s better than nothing.

 

[John121]

I had a post on this not so long ago many souls are lost to hell I have read a few catholic saints mentioning this I fear for my own soul daily !

The world is distracted and deceived and the problem is that if you uncover the deception it ends in martyrdom!

 

[angel12]

When I read that most will be damned, my math oriented brain tends to feel more hopeless for many of those I love. They are wonderful caring loving people.

And you believe that God, Who loves us so much that He became man and died for us, will just say, literally, “To Hell with those good people?”
How sad.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Like the Imitation of Christ says, He who loves God fears neither punishment nor Hell.
Have faith and you will find peace.

 

[CarmeliteKnight]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Despair is a child of the sin of sloth. It shows you have no faith in God or His judgment. Does it suck that many people go to hell? Absolutely, but despairing over it or questioning God’s judgement will not get me into heaven. It should spark the fear of God in your heart to know that narrow is the way to heaven.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

There’s a reason the Fatima prayer intercedes “for those in most need of mercy”.
Because there’s always hope.
You don’t know but that the worst sinners convert in their hearts at the end.

Also, be careful of the idea that being friendly and affable is the same as being united with Jesus.
The people who do wrong generally aren’t sporting horns and carrying pitchforks.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Are people elevated to sainthood on the basis of their intellectual acumen and perspicacity or on the basis of their love toward others and their faith (even if some of the details are erroneous)? I thought it was the latter, and although parts of saints’ lives might not have been so righteous and loving, since they developed into loving people who performed good deeds and had true faith so that they could perform miracles (rather than only intellectual faith), they might become saints.