Destination of abortion victims

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Limbo!!! Oh sorry, forgot we no longer believe in that…😉
Hedge bet says Heaven.
 
If a teaching is universally taught and accepted it is infallible. If later, people come along and change that teaching, it is they who are wrong. Not the infallible doctrine that is incorrect.
 
whyeyeman said:
You are denying the teaching of the Catholic church.
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No. Really, I’m not. 😉
Catechism 1257 : “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.”
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The catechism is on-line. If you’re going to quote it, please quote it in context. Proof-texting with snippets never works:

"Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. "

The logical implication is that, for one “to whom the Gospel” has not “been proclaimed”, or who has not “had the possibility of asking for the sacrament”, baptism is not necessary, per se.

“The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude”

In other words, baptism is about “assurance” of salvation. Yes, we are assured of salvation by following the path that begins with baptism. However, others exist. Namely:

“God … himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

In other words, God may save outside of baptism.

End of discussion. 😉
 
Do you know what the universal ordinary magisterium is? Its not a document that I can “show” you.
 
Hmmmmm. I am new to to the church, but in my studies so far,… I say limbo. Does this hold water?
 
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I just realized you have been discussing this… Lol but I have thought limbo because of augustine and popes quoted on the Sensus Fidelium video I saw yesterday
 
I find it hard to understand how limbo could not be considered a doctrine. It was universally taught, and therefore it is infallible.
 
No sir, not end of discussion, you have never felt the gift of life growing inside you…A loving gift of life from God. My second child was still born, for what ever reason God called her back into His loving care. I called for the priest to anoit her. I named her Therese, and I KNOW that I will see her again, she does not reside in a place called limbo for there is no such place,… God has let me know within my heart that she and all the souls He called back to Himself are safe within His Mercy and Love, God Bless you.🦋🦋🦋::
 
whyeyeman said:
Do you know what the universal ordinary magisterium is? Its not a document that I can “show” you.
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Do you know that “universal ordinary magisterium” means that it is taught everywhere, always, and by all? That’s what I’m asking you to demonstrate. 😉
 
Not necessarily always. Just at one point universally. And this was most definitely the case. the
 
whyeyeman said:
Not necessarily always. Just at one point universally. And this was most definitely the case. the
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I’ll turn your question back on you, then: do you know what the universal ordinary magisterium is? Your statement, above, demonstrates that you do not.

Let me help you out with that. From Canon Law:
Can. 749

§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium
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(All emphases mine.)

My underlining above shows you where you need to demonstrate your claim, if you want to assert that limbo is a doctrine of the Church. Either:
  • it’s been declared in an ecumenical council,
  • it’s been declared by all bishops as a tenet to be held definitively
  • it’s been manifested by the Christian faithful with the sacred magisterium
Easy peasy. If your claim is true, you’ll be able to show that one of these is true. Note, as well, that once it’s declared, it’s irreformable – the Church cannot go back on its previously-declared doctrine and say “oops! no no no… that one wasn’t doctrine!”… so, if you see anything like that, then there’s your indication that it never was doctrine.

I’ll give you an opportunity to find evidence of one of the bullet points (and then, when you can’t, I’ll show you where the Church says that it was never doctrine). 😉
 
You are confusing the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium.

When the bishops in union with the Pope define something at an ecumenical council, this falls under the extraordinary magisterium.

What I am talking about is the ordinary and universal magisterium. This is when all the bishops are not at a council, but are all teaching the same thing. This is still infallible.

My query is that limbo was universally taught for hundreds of years. How can this be so? And I agree. The church can’t go back on itself. This is why am concerned about it apparently doing just that.
 
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I think this is where the old theological notes came in handy. Let’s say we assume your premise that all the bishops taught it. The question is then, did they teach that it was a dogma that must be believed? (I see no evidence of this). It seems the idea that all unbaptized infants necessarily go there was always considered a lesser category by the Magisterium.

It seems at best it was considered “very common,” defined as “the most solidly founded or best attested theological opinion on a disputed subject.”

These “opinions can be mistaken and there is no obligation to follow them though prudence inclines us to favour them as a general policy.”

Obviously, now the “very common” position has shifted to the idea that there is good hope that infants are cleansed of original sin and saved.

Here’s a good chart on these:
http://www.the-pope.com/theolnotes.html
 
whyeyeman said:
You are confusing the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium.
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Whoops… good catch! (I shouldn’t have underlined the “ecumenical council” part; just the last part of c. 749 §2.)
What I am talking about is the ordinary and universal magisterium. This is when all the bishops are not at a council, but are all teaching the same thing. This is still infallible.
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Agreed. That’s what I’m asking you to demonstrate.
My query is that limbo was universally taught for hundreds of years.
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And therefore, if it was taught as doctrine, then it still must be taught today. It is not. In fact, it is asserted by the Church that it was merely a theological opinion.
How can this be so? And I agree. The church can’t go back on itself. This is why am concerned about it apparently doing just that.
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How can it be? Because although it was taught, it was never declared as doctrine. QED. 😉
 
The zygote is a human being. Ensoulment is a whole 'nother matter. We do not know that ensoulment occurs at conception or at what point between conception and birth.

This does not in any way make that earliest human life less valuable.
 
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