Destruction from God?

[JamesG]

Is there anyone here who thinks that God exacts punishment on us for our sins?

There are many places in the bible where this does occur and God punishes us through war, famine, disease, and catastrophe.

Many people wonder how God can be so destructive and at the same time so loving.

My answer to them is that death and destruction ALWAYS occur when we reject God.

You can’t reject God and expect such things will not to occur.

Destruction and death is independent of our faith. It is part of the very fabric of our existence. To reject God is to bring about your eternal death.

War is the natural culmination of all forms of evil. Abortion, sexual perversion, racism, greed, pride, etc… All built up to a critical mass and that is when destruction occurs.

This is why I think the US (and Canada) is going to experience great pain in the near future. The critical Mass of evil is building up so high that at some point it is going to explode. Does the US honestly think it can get away with the murder of 47 million children of God? No it cannot!

The only hope we have from the bible is that God does save his people. God does protect those who are his people. With that said, I honestly think that the pain the US is going through right now (even within its court system) is a civil war against the culture of death.

If I were living in a state or a city that fully supported the culture of death I would take my family and leave. I wouldn’t look back either.
You can be sure that when the lines are drawn, those cities and states that reject God will bring death and destruction upon themselves.

At this point I think we have to relearn all the valuable lessons that brought destruction on our ancestors in ancient times. Sadly, even when we do learn those lessons again we will forget the lessons we understand now. It is just one big cycle that never ends. The human species will never learn its lesson.

The sad truth about human existence is that it does not have the capacity to learn on its own. Every few generations the truth is lost and everything starts over again. Nothing in history ever changes.

That is why Christ HAS to return. There is no other option.

 

[felra]

There is a distinction between temporal punishment for sins and collective or selective chastisement from God.

 

[Della]

The chastisements of the OT were meant to bring Israel back into line since they needed to remain faithful to God in order to bring the Messiah into the world.

That has been fulfilled in Christ. We live in the age of grace in which God deals quite differently with his people. If we live in a sin-soaked society, we will suffer right along with it. That is why it is our duty to be a witness to God’s righteousness in the world–to preserve it like salt preserves meat.

Having said that, though, I do not see the recent natural disasters as direct punishment from God. The forces of nature are simply too strong for us to battle sometimes. If the levies had been properly cared for in New Orleans there wouldn’t have been the flooding that happened there. Now that is the direct fault of man and a lot of innocent people paid the price.

 

[felra]

Della:

Having said that, though, I do not see the recent natural disasters as direct punishment from God. The forces of nature are simply too strong for us to battle sometimes. If the levies had been properly cared for in New Orleans there wouldn’t have been the flooding that happened there. Now that is the direct fault of man and a lot of innocent people paid the price.

I fail to see why these “natural disasters” are not a warning from God for us who have strayed to heed for the welfare of our souls. After all, God is Lord of natural disasters, is He not?

1 2 “At that time some people who were present there told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with the blood of their sacrifices. He said to them in reply, “Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were greater sinners than all other Galileans? By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did! Or those eighteen people who were killed when the tower at Siloam fell on them 3 --do you think they were more guilty than everyone else who lived in Jerusalem? By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!” Luke 13:1-5

Footnotes

1 [1-5] The death of the Galileans at the hands of Pilate (Luke 13:1) and the accidental death of those on whom the tower fell (Luke 13:4) are presented by the Lucan Jesus as timely reminders of the need for all to repent, for the victims of these tragedies should not be considered outstanding sinners who were singled out for punishment.

 

[Della]

1 [1-5] The death of the Galileans at the hands of Pilate (Luke 13:1) and the accidental death of those on whom the tower fell (Luke 13:4) are presented by the Lucan Jesus as timely reminders of the need for all to repent, for the victims of these tragedies should not be considered outstanding sinners who were singled out for punishment.

Exactly my point!

 

[setter]

Here is an example of one notable saint who saw a natural calamity as a chastisement sent by God for the sins of the people:

St. Charles Borromeo – Archbishop of Milan, Cardinal-Priest of the Title of St. Prassede, Papal Secretary of State under Pius IV, and one of the chief factors in the Catholic Counter-Reformation – was born in the Castle of Arona, a town on the southern shore of the Lago Maggiore in northern Italy, 2 October, 1538; died at Milan, 3 November, 1584. His emblem is the word humilitas crowned, which is a portion of the Borromeo shield. He is usually represented in art in his cardinal’s robes, barefoot, carrying the cross as archbishop; a rope round his neck, one hand raised in blessing, thus recalling his work during the plague. His feast is kept on 4 November.

In August [1576], Don John of Austria, visited Milan. Religious exercises were being carried out, and his arrival was made the occasion of rejoicings and spectacular effects. All at once everything was changed, for the [bubonic] plague appeared in Milan. Charles was at Lodi, at the funeral of the bishop. He at once returned, and inspired confidence in all. He was convinced that the plague was sent as a chatisement for sin, and sought all the more to give himself to prayer. At the same time he thought of the people. He prepared himself for death, made his will (9 September, 1576), and then gave himself up entirely to his people. Personal visits were paid by him to the plague-stricken houses.

At the beginning of 1577 the plague began to abate, and though there was a temmporary increase in the number of cases, at last it ceased. **The Milanese vowed to build a church dedicated to St. Sebastian, if he would deliver them. ** This promise was fulfilled. **Charles wrote at this time the “Memoriale”, ** a small work, addressed to his suffragans, which had for its object to recall the lessons given by the cessation of the plague.

The position which Charles held in Europe was indeed a very remarkable one. The mass of correspondence both to and by him testifies to the way in which his opinion was sought. The popes under whom he lived – as has been shown above – sought his advice. The sovereigns of Europe, Henry III of France, Philip II, Mary Queen of Scots, and others showed how they valued his influence. His brother cardinals have written in praise of his virtues. Cardinal Valerio of Verona said of him that he was to the well-born a pattern of virtue, to his brother cardinals an example of true nobility. Cardinal Baronius styled him “a second Ambrose, whose early death, lamented by all good men, inflicted great loss on the Church”.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/03619a.htm

 

[BryPGuy89]

Della:

The chastisements of the OT were meant to bring Israel back into line since they needed to remain faithful to God in order to bring the Messiah into the world.

That has been fulfilled in Christ. We live in the age of grace in which God deals quite differently with his people. If we live in a sin-soaked society, we will suffer right along with it. That is why it is our duty to be a witness to God’s righteousness in the world–to preserve it like salt preserves meat.

Having said that, though, I do not see the recent natural disasters as direct punishment from God. The forces of nature are simply too strong for us to battle sometimes. If the levies had been properly cared for in New Orleans there wouldn’t have been the flooding that happened there. Now that is the direct fault of man and a lot of innocent people paid the price.

Mother nature is under God’s control, he lets or makes things happen for reasons beyond our comprehention. The big storm wouldn’t have come but for a reason of his, the levies could have been fixed long before, but human negligence lead to the flooding,
it is a big circle of He does something and we either do something to make it worse or prevent it. Good or bad.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi JamesG, God always sent a prophet before the destruction. So, when people say that such and such is a punishment of God, I ask where is the prophet? On the personal level God does discipline his children, whatever that means.

 

[setter]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi JamesG, God always sent a prophet before the destruction. So, when people say that such and such is a punishment of God, **I ask where is the prophet? ** On the personal level God does discipline his children, whatever that means.

Jesus Christ is our current generation prophet. The laity through the sacrament of baptism are called to participate in office of Jesus Christ as prophet; the clergy through the sacrament of holy orders are enacted as representatives of Christ in the office of prophet. The Church and society is not wanting for a lack of instruments to act as prophets for this generation. Perhaps more a lack of “prophecy” and a lack of hearing?

1581 This sacrament configures the recipient to Christ by a special grace of the Holy Spirit, so that he may serve as Christ’s instrument for his Church. By ordination one is enabled to act as a representative of Christ, Head of the Church, in his triple office of priest, prophet, and king. (CCC)

783 Jesus Christ is the one whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them. (CCC)

"With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: `You shall indeed hear but never understand,
and you shall indeed see but never perceive.For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are heavy of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should perceive with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.” Matt. 13: 10-16

 

[Marquette]

Sometimes I wonder if the hurricane that hit New Orleans was punishment for how wicked the Mardi Gras has become.

Ok, I’ll sit back and wait to get clobbered on this one.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif