Detachment... Holy Indifference

[Denise1957]

*Denise, I do not know for sure and I could be wrong so please correct me if I am but I believe that you, Br. jay and Sirach might be talking past each other.(I think thats what they call it.)
Anyway please let me run by what I am seeing and maybe it will help.

When you read what Br. Jay said about St. Elizabeth here " She dearly loved her husband and children, but she would not trade the love of God to keep them close to her. The fact that she loved with passion and yet surrendered what she loved for the sake of the Beloved, is detachment."

I believe you are taking it as saying that St. Elizabeth in her surrendering what she loves for the sake of the Beloved as not loving what she is forsaking anymore. I do not believe that is what she does. Just because she forsakes or gives back to God what He has given her I do not believe that means she stops loving what she was given. It is just that she still loves God and does not hold it against Him for taking back what was His to give her in the first place. But I do not see how in giving back to God what is His to take means she stops loving that what He has given and then taken. She still loves what He has given her, she just does not trade her love for Him by being angry with Him or forsaking Him for having taken them from her. She accepts as His will willingly but still has love for them. It is like she has love for God and for what He has given her. But her love for God is greater and even though she would love for Him to change His mind and not take what He has given to her…because her love for Him is greater, she accepts His will and does not try to stop Him or convince Him to change His mind. Her only concern is for His will to be done.

not sure if this is correct but if it is I hope it helps…if it is not…I am sure Br. Jay and Sirach can correct it… *

Thank you, simple soul; it’s very kind of you to offer further explanation. I still disagree with some on this thread, and that’s not likely to change, so I’ll back out of this thread for now. Though I would like to see a traditionalist perspective, which has not yet been offered, at least on the last couple of pages of the thread.

 

[simple_soul]

It’s not surprising that she made up her mind to love the Lord above all else. But where does she say that she was detached from those around her? She mentions that when you love the Lord above all else, your capacities are so enlarged so that the feelings towards those who are dear to you are infinitly more tender than they would have been if you have devoted yourself to a selfish kind of love which remains barren.

Does tenderness toward those whom we love equate with detachment and indifference? I’m not making that connection. In fact, she seems to be saying the opposite: When you put Love for Our Lord first, you have greater love for those around you. She does not say that putting love for Our Lord first will cause a detachment from them.

Do you think that she is saying that unless we are detached from those around us, it is a selfish kind of love that remains barren? I can’t see that she is saying this.

Denise, I did not see this post earlier but here are my continued thoughts on this.
Keep in mind I have not actually read St. Teresa of Avila’s writings so I could be getting this wrong,
Anyway, I do agree with the fact that as our love for God grows and becomes more intimate our love for all that He loves “seems” to grow and become more intimate but it never becomes greater than our Love for God because at this point I do not believe we are loving with our love but with God’s love. It is like we have learned to forsake everything except our love for God and He then fills us with His love that we in turn can love others with.
Does this help some or make any sense?

 

[hazcompat]

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

peace

 

[Sirach2]

Denise1957:

We are not to detach ourselves from those that we love in order to love and follow the will of God. Our attachment to God is the priority, but it does not involve detachment in order to achieve.

“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.”

Are these words of Jesus simply a hyperbole? Or rather, profound Truth? Our Lord taught that we are indeed to love one another, but puts a condition upon it, "as **I **have loved you. The Holy Spirit has much work to do in our hearts to bring us to this reality, for so often we believe we are loving, when in fact we are manipulative, controlling, and seeking oneself.

We can inadvertently become an enabler that causes another to remain in their sin by our imprudent loving. Those in 12-step programs bear witness to this unfortunate mistake in loving unwisely. Many a parent errs in doling money to bail out financially irresponsible children, who never quite learn their lesson through bearing the consequences of their wrong behavior. I’m sure you folks can think of other examples.

Consider the request of the mother who asked Jesus to let her two sons sit, one at His right and one at His left. Who is she loving? Too often, we banter the word love around like we all know what it really means, and in that blindness, fail to really heed the still tiny voice of the Spirit who comes to teach us how to truly love as Jesus taught.

And that takes detachment from selfish loving to Spirit-loving.

 

[TrueLight]

While grappling with the idea of detachment, I stumbled upon the Dominican Meister Eckhart’s teaching:

The man who has submitted his will and purposes entirely to God, carries God with him in all his works and in all circumstances. Therein can no man hinder him, for he neither aims at nor enjoys anything else, save God. God is united with Him in all his purposes and designs. Even as no manifoldness can dissipate God, so nothing can dissipate such a man, or destroy his unity. Man, therefore, should take God with him in all things; God should be always present to his mind and will and affections. The same disposition that thou hast in church or in thy cell, thou shouldst keep and maintain in a crowd, and amid the unrest and manifoldness of the world.

Some people pride themselves on their detachment from mankind, and are glad to be alone or in church; and therein lies their peace. But he who is truly in the right state, is so in all circumstances, and among all persons; he who is not in a good state, it is not right with him in all places and among all persons. He who is as he should be has God with him in truth, in all places and among all persons, in the street as well as in the church; and then no man can hinder him. ellopos.net/theology/eckhart_detachment.html

So as others have said, God should be a part of every moment of our lives.

I think also of Psalm 24:1:

The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.

It’s like if you borrow a book you love and you love the book and are totally enjoying it. But you know it doesn’t belong to you.

Our jobs, children, wives, husbands, sisters, brothers… none of them belong to us. Everything belongs to God.

When he is ready to take them whether through job loss, or death, he does.

We love our families with the perfect love of one who has been entrusted with precious gifts, but we pray that we are ready to give them all up if God requires it.

That is not to say that our families are books. But sometimes we treat them as if they are our possessions, when they are really lent to us from the Lord.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you, simple soul; it’s very kind of you to offer further explanation. I still disagree with some on this thread, and that’s not likely to change, so I’ll back out of this thread for now. Though I would like to see a traditionalist perspective, which has not yet been offered, at least on the last couple of pages of the thread.

Denise, this is about as Traditionalist as its going to get. Anyone who tells you something other than what the Masters have said, is not a Traditionalist. He’s a confused individual.

While grappling with the idea of detachment, I stumbled upon the Dominican Meister Eckhart’s teaching:

So as others have said, God should be a part of every moment of our lives.

I think also of Psalm 24:1:

It’s like if you borrow a book you love and you love the book and are totally enjoying it. But you know it doesn’t belong to you.

Our jobs, children, wives, husbands, sisters, brothers… none of them belong to us. Everything belongs to God.

When he is ready to take them whether through job loss, or death, he does.

We love our families with the perfect love of one who has been entrusted with precious gifts, but we pray that we are ready to give them all up if God requires it.

That is not to say that our families are books. But sometimes we treat them as if they are our possessions, when they are really lent to us from the Lord.

I really like the book analogy. Of course, Meister Eckhart is saying the same thing that the other masters are saying. God becomes the summit of our joy and our life. As we keep God at the center, we are comfortable with what we have or what we don’t have. We are comfortable with the loved ones who are near and we are comfortable when they are gone.

Just like the borrowed book. Meister Eckhart makes the same point that you did. We don’t own any of it or any of them. To be detached from our loved ones, does not mean to cease loving the… To be detached is to live as Meister Eckhart says, with the same degree of comfort within the cell or out in the street. In this case, it would be to live with the same degree of comfort with our loved ones or without them, because the object of our love is Our Lord Jesus Christ. Our loved ones are a means to loving God. They are not an end in themselves.

Like the borrowed boo in you example. It’s a means to getting the information that you need. But at the end of the day, what you need is the information, not the book. My loved ones are a means to loving God. At the end of the day, if I love everyone around me, but rebel against God, what have I gained? However, if I allow God to use and take my loved ones as he pleases and I pray for the grace to trust his plan for us, this is true detachment. It is as Meister Eckhart would say, feeling comfortable with God’s ways when things are good and when they’re not so good.

One of the best examples of detachment is in the marriage rite. The man and woman vow to love each other for better or for worse. They are willing to give up the better and accept the worse, if need be, but they are determined to love until death.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Oneofthewomen]

It would be good to have another traditionalist perpective on this, since it is mostly the non-traditionalists who are posting on this thread (that is, if there are any trads left on this subforum).

I am sorry that you are misunderstanding us,
but was this comment really necessary??
How do you know that none of us here are “traditionalists”?
What does that even mean?

As Br. Jay and many others have said, you can’t get much more “traditional” than the saints.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Dear Oneofthewomen,

We were posting at the same time, so I was not aware until this morning that you had posted this most beautiful prayer of surrender by St. Ignatius. Many years ago when I first came upon it, I realized I couldn’t pray it with my heart, for one thing or another always held me back. What if the Lord took xxx, or what if He takes my xxx?? No, I couldn’t put my being into that prayer. Finally, one day when I really and truly prayed it, the Lord blessed me beyond my imaginings, for He is never outdone in generosity. It was as though He manifested His acceptance of my burnt offering.

Sirach-
I know exactly what you mean!!!
This prayer was almost impossible for me to say-
until I did the 19th Annotation, and learned all about “detachment”
and what it really means!!!
Sometimes, I still struggle with it, but I still pray it every morning!!

 

[TrueLight]

I am sorry that you are misunderstanding us,
but was this comment really necessary??
How do you know that none of us here are “traditionalists”?
What does that even mean?

As Br. Jay and many others have said, you can’t get much more “traditional” than the saints.

Funny you should say that.

I know I’m going to annoy some people.

But I don’t see a lot of so-called “trads”, involved in the threads on spirituality.

So Denise it’s good to see you here even if you don’t agree.

What I do see is plenty of (name removed by moderator)ut in judgmental threads and I admit I have been guilty in that regards as well.

I wonder why that is?

**Edited: **I just almost started a thread on this, but it would be too provocative. So in the interest of charity, I won’t.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Funny you should say that.

I know I’m going to annoy some people.

But I don’t see a lot of so-called “trads”, involved in the threads on spirituality.

So Denise it’s good to see you here even if you don’t agree.

What I do see is plenty of (name removed by moderator)ut in judgmental threads and I admit I have been guilty in that regards as well.

I wonder why that is?

**Edited: **I just almost started a thread on this, but it would be too provocative. So in the interest of charity, I won’t.

I have to say I agree with you on this one TrueLight!
It has also been my observation, here at CAF and in my own little circle of the world, that part of the reason is that “spirituality” is not “black & white”. Things are open to interpretation and for lack of a better word, not “orderly”, and that makes most of the people I know, who identify as “traditionalists”, crazy!

In speaking with a friend, who by this boards standards would be a “traditionalist”, about the topic of “spirituality” he used an analogy of Dr. McCoy & Mr. Spock from Star Trek. We were talking about the difference between the “charasmatic” group and the “traditional” group in our diocese. He said, the chrasmatics are like Bones, led by emotion & feeling, whereas the traditionalists are more Spock-like, and all about logic & rules. And unfortunately, they are both missing out on the beauty & richness of the Catholic faith by looking for the *either/or *instead of the ***both/and. ***
The more I think about it, it’s a pretty profound obeservation!

I, for one, think it would be a great thread, but, alas, I also think that it would not last long…

 

[TrueLight]

I have to say I agree with you on this one TrueLight!
It has also been my observation, here at CAF and in my own little circle of the world, that part of the reason is that “spirituality” is not “black & white”. Things are open to interpretation and for lack of a better word, not “orderly”, and that makes most of the people I know, who identify as “traditionalists”, crazy!

In speaking with a friend, who by this boards standards would be a “traditionalist”, about the topic of “spirituality” he used an analogy of Dr. McCoy & Mr. Spock from Star Trek. We were talking about the difference between the “charasmatic” group and the “traditional” group in our diocese. He said, the chrasmatics are like Bones, led by emotion & feeling, whereas the traditionalists are more Spock-like, and all about logic & rules. And unfortunately, they are both missing out on the beauty & richness of the Catholic faith by looking for the *either/or *instead of the ***both/and. ***
The more I think about it, it’s a pretty profound obeservation!

Profound indeed.

I, for one, think it would be a great thread, but, alas, I also think that it would not last long…

 

[TrueLight]

They’re talking about detachment on the Catholicism series.

 

[justmyconcerns]

To not be attached to this world is a struggle, here is a prayer that reminds me I need to be detached from things and try to live simply as possible:

Prayer to Live Simply

O Lord, help me to break away from attachments in life. They make me empty and insecure which cause to distrust everyone, including the ones I love. For all earthly things are temporary but your love is forever. O Lord, you came in this world with nothing and left with nothing. By your example, help me to see where real happiness which is faith, love and charity .Please Lord, help me to practice the way you were raised by your Blessed Mother and St. Joseph. They practiced humility and patience, by their example I want to avoid vanity and self glory. O Lord, help me to break away from attachments, which cause me to be a slave of sin. Free me Jesus. Amen

 

[Oneofthewomen]

To not be attached to this world is a struggle, here is a prayer that reminds me I need to be detached from things and try to live simply as possible:

Prayer to Live Simply

O Lord, help me to break away from attachments in life. They make me empty and insecure which cause to distrust everyone, including the ones I love. For all earthly things are temporary but your love is forever. O Lord, you came in this world with nothing and left with nothing. By your example, help me to see where real happiness which is faith, love and charity .Please Lord, help me to practice the way you were raised by your Blessed Mother and St. Joseph. They practiced humility and patience, by their example I want to avoid vanity and self glory. O Lord, help me to break away from attachments, which cause me to be a slave of sin. Free me Jesus. Amen

Beautiful!!
Thank you for sharing.

 

[JReducation]

Funny you should say that.

I know I’m going to annoy some people.

But I don’t see a lot of so-called “trads”, involved in the threads on spirituality.

So Denise it’s good to see you here even if you don’t agree.

What I do see is plenty of (name removed by moderator)ut in judgmental threads and I admit I have been guilty in that regards as well.

I wonder why that is?

**Edited: **I just almost started a thread on this, but it would be too provocative. So in the interest of charity, I won’t.

I’m going to take a guess here. I’m no sociologist. My guess is that there are someTraditionalists out there who have reduced Traditional Spirituality to pious practices: the rosary, novenas, May Crowning, the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, Eucharistic Adoration and also down to participation in liturgy: mass and LOTH.

I think it happens because they don’t understand that these practices are part of a bigger picture. The Rosary works because it’s part of Catholic Tradition to contemplate the life of Christ. It also part of Jewish Tradition that mothers and sons are inseparable, the veneration of the one goes along with the veneration of the other, even though they are different and all merits come from the Son.

People fail to understand that Adoration of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament is part of a school of Christian Spirituality that flowed out of monasticism. The monks didn’t just sit before the tabernacle. That was part of it. Everything that they did was for the purpose of achieving union with the Divine. The act of adoration is part of a supreme and sublime surrender to the Divine Presence.

How many people understand that novenas come from Judaism? In Judaism, days of prayer were usually in sets of eight. Christians used three sets of three in honor of the Trinity. Whether you follow the Jewish custom of eight or the Christian custom of nine, the concept remains the same. It is an act of worship, petition, thanksgiving or penance in honor of the God-Head.

Praying to saints is part of an ancient Jewish tradition that is carried over into Christianity. The Jews would go to the tombs of the prophets and patriarchs to implore their prayers. They also prayed to angels. Though they understood that all merits flow from God, they also understood that those who were closer to God shared in those merits. That was just a foreshadowing of what was to come with the birth of the Church when the Communion of Saints is revealed in its fullness.

Finally, there is asceticism, which is what detachment and holy indifference is all about. This too has its roots in a very ancient school of Christian life that flourishes in the desert with the Desert Fathers and is later given shape by the hermits at Mt. Carmel. It was preceded by Jewish hermits.

I really believe that to some Traditionalists, Traditional Christian Spirituality is the actual exercises, but they don’t understand that those exercises are the external expression of an internal awareness. Nor do they understand that there is a whole theology behind each of these exercises. This theology is found in revelation, explained by the Spiritual Masters and exemplified for us by the saints. It reminds us that all things come from and lead back to the Trinity.

This may be the reason that these folks don’t jump into these discussions. They may not see the connection between these schools of thought, traditions and the pious exercises. The fact is that they are part of a whole, called Christian Spiritual Tradition.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Br. Jay,
Awesome post, as usual!!

Can you recommend any books that speak, in general, to the “Christian Spiritual Tradition” that you are speaking about?

What about some books on mysticism?
Again, maybe something general, like a “Mysticism for Dummies” kind of thing.

Peace be with you!

 

[Sirach2]

Greetings, again, Oneofthewomen,

Wondering if you have seen the beautiful series on EWTN called “Living the Discerning Life?” It concluded a week ago, but the network started it up again from the beginning on Sunday nights at 8 PM, so he has not touched on very much if you jump in now. Fr. Gallagher presents all of St. Ignatius’ teachings on discernment in - I’m guessing - perhaps a dozen consecutive airings. He is such a gentle spirit and spends a good amount of time to be sure the listener understands. The program repeats on Mondays at 1 PM. Actually, he is filling the slot that Fr. Corapi used to hold on his Catechism series.

BTW, I have both of his books on discernment and they are EXCELLENT!

 

[TrueLight]

There is a nice mysticism thread here.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Greetings, again, Oneofthewomen,

Wondering if you have seen the beautiful series on EWTN called “Living the Discerning Life?” It concluded a week ago, but the network started it up again from the beginning on Sunday nights at 8 PM, so he has not touched on very much if you jump in now. Fr. Gallagher presents all of St. Ignatius’ teachings on discernment in - I’m guessing - perhaps a dozen consecutive airings. He is such a gentle spirit and spends a good amount of time to be sure the listener understands. The program repeats on Mondays at 1 PM. Actually, he is filling the slot that Fr. Corapi used to hold on his Catechism series.

BTW, I have both of his books on discernment and they are EXCELLENT!

Hi Sirach,
No, I haven’t had a chance to catch the series yet, but some of the material that was used in the 19th Annotation program I was in from him, so I am very familar with him. I love the way he writes so much, I have all his books!!
I am going to have to record it and ***make ***the time to watch it!

@TrueLight- thanks for the link, I have to check it out!

Peace!

 

[TimothyH]

Br. Jay,
Awesome post, as usual!!

Can you recommend any books that speak, in general, to the “Christian Spiritual Tradition” that you are speaking about?

What about some books on mysticism?
Again, maybe something general, like a “Mysticism for Dummies” kind of thing.

Peace be with you!

Go to a monastary. Make a retreat. Experience it yourself.

About the third day you will start to breathe for the first time in your life.

-Tim-