detachment

[Ohana]

There are certain assumptions to this question.

First, it is assumed that it is the only one answering the question. As mentioned above Christians and platonists more generally have always spoken of detachment.

Second, it assumes that detachment is a good thing. Why is detachment better than attachment?

Interesting question. I think: Attachment precedes detachment. Psychologically there have been some wonderful studies on attachment and loss (Bowlby) Failure of attachment in a young child leads to a crippling of the person such that their psychological and even physical health can be terribly affected. Therefore, in order to form good relationships, even with God to some extent, attachment has to be sufficient. Maybe not ideal, just sufficient.
St Theresa, St. John of the Cross, St. Francis, St. Augustine I think, all speak of letting go of the things of the world. St. John most eloquently in his poetry. Yet these people took great pleasure in nature and beauty; they were joyful from what I have read.

I think detachment is gradually letting go of some of the things we hold dear or important. I am pretty old, and at one point we were going to move a long way, so we gave our kids most of our “stuff”. it was so good to travel light without most of our “stuff”. It was instructive. Partly I think it becomes a discipline with regard to possessions, but also with regard to our daily living. Is is important to win that argument, or can one detach from that, Is it important to be liked, or can one detach from that. etc.

Not giving up coffee though!

 

[JW55]

Google “Catholic detachment”. You will get plenty of good responses from a catholic perspective.

 

[JRKH]

Daily examine, with God in prayer, what your high emotional moments were…good and bad. They might point you to something that needs a bit of detaching.

But isn’t it something very positive to feel very strong GOOD emotions about something? Isn’t great jpy one of the gifts that God has given us?

This will depend on what, specifically, you feel joy in.
If you have a neighbor who you do not get along with, and feel joy that they lose their house…is that joy a good thing?
Joy - as an emotion - is subject to our innermost beliefs, that is, in what we are at our core, and in our soul. Therefore it is important to NOT measure what is “good” by what gives us “joy”.
If we are of God - in Agape - then we will feel joy at that which is proper and good. If we feel joy at things which are not of Agape Love, then - as mentioned above - there needs to be a bit of detaching.

Peace
James

 

[Edward_H]

But isn’t it something very positive to feel very strong GOOD emotions about something? Isn’t great jpy one of the gifts that God has given us?

Not necessarily. Depends. If you’re elated that you did well in an exam, or in a business meeting, maybe you want to examine your gratitude, or budding pride? If someone compliments you, perhaps be alert to budding vanity.

God wants us to be joyful, and we should be joyful always, because we KNOW (vs merely feel) that we are His children, not because we’ve been complimented, or because we play the violin well, or because we have friends, or things. God gives us friends so we can help them, or because they can help us get closer to God.

Anything we have and hold dearly that doesn’t help us or others get closer to God might be a point of examination as an attachment.

We never should be scrupulous about these things…but detachments do tend to grow.

I’ve recently been thinking about the use of the words thankful and thanks giving. Today the meaning in the US of thankful is this somewhat superficial self-oriented view of our fullness of fleeting thanks. More a statement on our feelings, as is too typical inthe US. Thanksgiving is instead an EXCHANGE with God or with others.

 

[JRKH]

Not necessarily. Depends. If you’re elated that you did well in an exam, or in a business meeting, maybe you want to examine your gratitude, or budding pride? If someone compliments you, perhaps be alert to budding vanity.

God wants us to be joyful, and we should be joyful always, because we KNOW (vs merely feel) that we are His children, not because we’ve been complimented, or because we play the violin well, or because we have friends, or things. God gives us friends so we can help them, or because they can help us get closer to God.

Anything we have and hold dearly that doesn’t help us or others get closer to God might be a point of examination as an attachment.

We never should be scrupulous about these things…but detachments do tend to grow.

I’ve recently been thinking about the use of the words thankful and thanks giving. Today the meaning in the US of thankful is this somewhat superficial self-oriented view of our fullness of fleeting thanks. More a statement on our feelings, as is too typical inthe US. Thanksgiving is instead an EXCHANGE with God or with others.

 

[Kathrin]

This will depend on what, specifically, you feel joy in.
If you have a neighbor who you do not get along with, and feel joy that they lose their house…is that joy a good thing?
Joy - as an emotion - is subject to our innermost beliefs, that is, in what we are at our core, and in our soul. Therefore it is important to NOT measure what is “good” by what gives us “joy”.
If we are of God - in Agape - then we will feel joy at that which is proper and good. If we feel joy at things which are not of Agape Love, then - as mentioned above - there needs to be a bit of detaching.

Peace
James

Of course. When speaking about joy as a gift of God and isn’t it good to feel joy, then I of course only spoke of the kind of joy that is GOOD (that is, we have already come to the conclusion that it is a psoitive kind of joy, isn’t based on something sinful/immoral, etc.

In a way you are right, we cannot measure what is good by whether or not it gives us joy… but on the other hand, if we have a fine-tuned conscience, maybe we even can in some way? Because then nothing would give us real joy when we know it to be in itself opposed to LOVE (like the example you give - joy in the misfortune of others. Or joy coming from sinful actions.)

 

[Kathrin]

Not necessarily. Depends. If you’re elated that you did well in an exam, or in a business meeting, maybe you want to examine your gratitude, or budding pride? If someone compliments you, perhaps be alert to budding vanity.

God wants us to be joyful, and we should be joyful always, because we KNOW (vs merely feel) that we are His children, not because we’ve been complimented, or because we play the violin well, or because we have friends, or things. God gives us friends so we can help them, or because they can help us get closer to God.

Anything we have and hold dearly that doesn’t help us or others get closer to God might be a point of examination as an attachment.

We never should be scrupulous about these things…but detachments do tend to grow.

Actually this is a very sensitive issue and the answerr might look very different for different people.
For one person detachment may be a good way for spiritual growth, for another person it would be very harmful to think they have to detach from some very allowable joy.

Joy is also something that comes with having found meaning in life.
Of course, the ultimate meaning comes from GOD. But He also has given us talents, preferences, a life path… that can be great reason for I think very legitimate joy

 

[JRKH]

Of course. When speaking about joy as a gift of God and isn’t it good to feel joy, then I of course only spoke of the kind of joy that is GOOD (that is, we have already come to the conclusion that it is a positive kind of joy, isn’t based on something sinful/immoral, etc.

Fair enough…I wanted to be clear for anyone looking in on this thread so as to avoid any confusion.

In a way you are right, we cannot measure what is good by whether or not it gives us joy… but on the other hand, if we have a fine-tuned conscience, maybe we even can in some way? Because then nothing would give us real joy when we know it to be in itself opposed to LOVE (like the example you give - joy in the misfortune of others. Or joy coming from sinful actions.)

If we have a fine tuned conscience then we have one joy…That which is in accord with our beloved, who is God. All other “particular” joys we might experience stem from this one joy. Using the analogy of spousal love, we find our joy in that which pleases our beloved.
So - it become obvious that we should not consider “joy” as an indicator one way or another as we seek to “fine tune” our conscience. Rather it is through examining all things in the light of Agape that we determine what is good, and then - that which is agape gives joy…

Peace
James

 

[Edward_H]

Actually this is a very sensitive issue and the answerr might look very different for different people.
For one person detachment may be a good way for spiritual growth, for another person it would be very harmful to think they have to detach from some very allowable joy.

Joy is also something that comes with having found meaning in life.
Of course, the ultimate meaning comes from GOD. But He also has given us talents, preferences, a life path… that can be great reason for I think very legitimate joy

Joy is found when we have found God in our everyday life. Joy is not mere feeling. We can’t be pushed around by our feelings.

 

[jimmy]

Interesting question. I think: Attachment precedes detachment. Psychologically there have been some wonderful studies on attachment and loss (Bowlby) Failure of attachment in a young child leads to a crippling of the person such that their psychological and even physical health can be terribly affected. Therefore, in order to form good relationships, even with God to some extent, attachment has to be sufficient. Maybe not ideal, just sufficient.
St Theresa, St. John of the Cross, St. Francis, St. Augustine I think, all speak of letting go of the things of the world. St. John most eloquently in his poetry. Yet these people took great pleasure in nature and beauty; they were joyful from what I have read.

I think detachment is gradually letting go of some of the things we hold dear or important. I am pretty old, and at one point we were going to move a long way, so we gave our kids most of our “stuff”. it was so good to travel light without most of our “stuff”. It was instructive. Partly I think it becomes a discipline with regard to possessions, but also with regard to our daily living. Is is important to win that argument, or can one detach from that, Is it important to be liked, or can one detach from that. etc.

Not giving up coffee though!

I agree completely. There is a sense in which detachment is a negative thing. You might speak of someone being emotionally detached. They don’t respond as they should in certain situations. They have problems connecting with other people.

Detachment is good in as much as we realize that life isn’t about stuff, and we should have our life focused on stuff. We must be seperate from our stuff, and not allow it to control us.

 

[underacloud]

You are quite right. So many great works were written by those in religious life and for those in religious life.
You might want to read St Francis DeSales “Introduction to a Devout Life”. It was written for those who live “in the world”…

Yes, I need to get back to St Francis de Sales work. Right now I’m working through St John of the Cross’s works and it’s very heavy and I struggle to see how much of what he says relates to me, even though I know that all of us are called to detachement.

To me - detachment does not mean “elimination”. Nor does it mean that we may not enjoy such pleasures - within their proper spheres.
I suggest that the best way to determine your level of attachment to a given thing is to consider how you would feel, act and react of that thing were taken away. Sadness surely at the loss of something you enjoy - but - would you be able to say with Job…“The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

This exercise will take some time for there are many things in our lives and they are so interconnected and some more “necessary” than others to our particular state in life. In addition, the Spirit works at His pace, and not ours. Prayer and contemplation on these matters may not yield understanding as quickly as we would like, but understanding will come. In matters of little import the answers will come quickly, but in matters of greater import and where we are more attached, the answers will likely be slower and more complex.

It is indeed an interesting thread and I hope it is of help to you.

Peace
James

Thanks James, those thoughts are helpful. I often contemplate potential loss in tihs regard, knowing that any of God’s blessings are merely borrowed to us and that detahcement requires an awareness of this. How would I react if I lost my wife or child(ren)? I do not know. Hopefully with the humility owed to God, as shown by Job.

 

[underacloud]

The issue here is not one or the other…Dividing things like this creates an unnecessary tension. Look at this quote…
“Those who love God are always happy, because their whole happiness is to fulfill, even in adversity, the will of God.” - St Alphonsus de Liguori
Yes Christianity is founded on a Sacrificial Love, but it is a sacrifice that brought happiness. Happiness in salvation and joy in living in Christ.

One of the founding principles of our faith is that we love others as we love ourselves.
How can we bring the joy of Christ and of salvation to others if we deny that joy to ourselves? We are happy because we Love…Agape…Not in a selfish way.

And, if what you say above is true - that “maybe that is what is wrong with the world” - then the fault lies, not in being happy, but in being happy in the wrong way and for the wrong reason.

Yes we are called to sacrifice…But if that sacrifice steals our happiness…then there is a problem…we have not been perfected…the act becomes a burden and is done grudgingly. This is not how Jesus gave to all those who came for healing. He gave willingly and joyfully and compassionately. And when the time came for Him to undertake the cross - and as we say every day in the mass - “He entered willingly into His passion” for while He knew that much pain would be involved, He knew also the joy, the happiness that would flow from it into the world.

So - I have to agree to a certain extent with interestedman here…It is much easier to help others when we ourselves are happy…We just have to be cognizant of what kind of happiness we are talking about…The source and summit of what makes us happy.

Peace
James

Christ entered His passion willingly, but He also asked if it could be done another way and sweated blood. He wasn’t happy about it…at the time. Yes, it brought happiness and joy, but these things flowed from the act.

As you say though, it is important what “happiness” we are talking about here. True happiness in this world is doing God’s will; irrespective of whether we feel like it or get something out of it. Christ did God’s will. We ought to do the same and be happy to do so, even if it is to bring the sort of missery that Christ suffered. I’m pretty sure that isn’t what interestedman was talking about.

Sacrifice can bring true happiness in doing God’s will, but can bring real unhappiness at the same time; it’s not really a sacrifice otherwise. So yes, much depends on what is meant by “happiness”.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, I need to get back to St Francis de Sales work. Right now I’m working through St John of the Cross’s works and it’s very heavy and I struggle to see how much of what he says relates to me, even though I know that all of us are called to detachment.

You might want to get a copy of the book in my signature…It is a wonderful distillation of the works of seven or eight Doctors of the Church - in the mystic tradition including John of the cross, Teresa of Avila, Francis DeSales, Catherine of Sienna and others…
I found it to be an easy read and extremely helpful…Well you can tell that from my description below…

Thanks James, those thoughts are helpful. I often contemplate potential loss in this regard, knowing that any of God’s blessings are merely borrowed to us and that detachment requires an awareness of this. How would I react if I lost my wife or child(ren)? I do not know. Hopefully with the humility owed to God, as shown by Job.

Glad to help.

Peace
James

 

[underacloud]

Thanks James, I already have that book. It is a most excellent book, and certainly a better starting point that heading straight in to some of the other works, such as those of St John of the Cross. St John’s poetry is beautiful, but his treatises are very hard work!..filled with great wisdom nonetheless.

 

[JRKH]

Thanks James, I already have that book. It is a most excellent book, and certainly a better starting point that heading straight in to some of the other works, such as those of St John of the Cross. St John’s poetry is beautiful, but his treatises are very hard work!..filled with great wisdom nonetheless.

Understood…I started St Catherine’s “Dialogues” after finishing Fulfillment and it is likewise “slow going”…
Hang in there…

Peace
James

 

[Kathrin]

I guess it is also very important to differentiate between detachment and elimination, that is definitely not the same.

 

[JRKH]

I guess it is also very important to differentiate between detachment and elimination, that is definitely not the same.

A very good point.

Peace
James

 

[Ohana]

For those interested in St. John of the Cross. There is a Carmelite Monastery and retreat center in Darien, Illinois. One of the priests there used to give classes on St. John. Tapes of the sessions were available for purchase. I don’t know the address, but you can find them on the internet I think. You might check and see if the tapes are still available. He went through two of the books I think, perhaps more. I attended some of the classes and found the interpretation by him very instructive. Heavy going by someone not well versed in that kind of writing. Best to you.

 

[mercytruth]

It’s a *very *Catholic question.

The mystics all spoke of detachement, and its necessity to enter spiritual union with God - read the works of St John of the Corss and St Theresa of Avila especially. And Jesus definitely spoke of it in the gospels (Mathew 19:21, Mark 10:17-27).

It’s a topic I struggle to understand properly, and to know how to apply it in my own life, so I’m very keen to hear responses to this thread.

If anyone would be my disciple, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me. Whosoever would save his life will lose it, but whosowever would lose his life for my sake will save it"

We must cast out all idols in our lives and place God first. Any person, thing, goal, or objective in our life that has more value, or meaning to us than God and our Lord Jesus Christ is an attachment.

Denial of self is very difficult for those with emotional and psychological wounds and probably should not be advanced without healing first. For the second commandment is like unto the first, ‘thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself’’. If we do not know how to love ourselves in a way that promotes emotional, psychological and physical well being, we certainly are not capable of loving our neighbor in a healthy manner either.

God’s peace

micah

 

[Vouthon]

This is detachment from a Catholic perspective, from our Rhineland school of mysticism:

"…Brothers, people say: ‘O Lord, I wish that I stood as well with God and that I had as much devotion and peace with God as other people, and that I could be like them or could be as poor as they are.’ Or they say: ‘It never works for me unless I am in this or that particular place and do this or that particular thing. I must go to somewhere remote or live in a hermitage or a monastery’.

Truly it is you who are the cause of this yourself, and nothing else. It is your own self-will, even if you don’t know it or this doesn’t seem to you to be the case…

Start with yourself therefore and take leave of yourself. Truly, if you do not depart from yourself, then wherever you take refuge, you will find obstacle and unrest, wherever it may be. Those who seek peace in external things, whether in places or devotional practices, people or works, in withdrawal from the world and self-abasement: however great these things may be or whatever their character, they are still nothing at all and cannot be the source of peace…

The most powerful prayer, one wellnigh omnipotent, and the worthiest work of all is the outcome of a quiet mind. The more free the mind is the more powerful, the worthier, the deeper, the more telling and more perfect the prayer is. To the free mind all things are possible. What is a free mind? A free mind is one which nothing weighs on, nothing worries, which, free from ties and from all self-seeking, untroubled and unfettered by anything, is wholly merged into the will of God and dead to its own…There is no work which men and women can perform, however small, which does not draw from this its power and strength…

True detachment means a mind as little moved by what befalls, by joy and sorrow, honor and disgrace, as a broad mountain by a gentle breeze…Since it is God’s nature not to be like anyone, we have to come to the state of being nothing in order to enter into the same nature that He is…

When I am united with the God within which all beings exist whether past, present or future, they are all equally near and equally one; they are all in God and all in me. Then there’s no need to think of Henry or Conrad…Human beings who love God as they ought and must (whether they would or not) must love their fellow human beings as themselves, rejoicing in their joys as their own joys, and desiring their honour as much as their own honour, and loving a stranger as one of their own…

You must have left behind all distinction of person, so that you are as well disposed to a person who is across the sea, whom you never set eyes on, as to the person who is with you and is your close friend. As long as you favour your own person more than that person you have never seen, you are assuredly not right and have never for a single instant looked into this simple ground…That man who is thus established in God’s love must be dead to self…"

- Meister Eckhart (1260-1329), Catholic mystic & Dominican priest

You should read the Treatise attributed to Eckhart which is known by the name, “On Detachment”. It is included in the Walshe translation, if anyone wants a solid Catholic understanding of detachment.

Here is an excellent talk (article) by the Eckhart Society on the Meister’s teaching on detachment:

eckhartsociety.org/resources/meister-eckhart-and-prayer-talk-2-being-detached