detachment

[Kathrin]

i think such things depend a lot on very fine nuances… is every feeling good about oneself already vanity? I think it really depends on so many little things.

 

[fred_conty]

i think such things depend a lot on very fine nuances… is every feeling good about oneself already vanity? I think it really depends on so many little things.

Kathrin, I think substituting a quiet prayer would be better.

I like your spirit.

Peace of Jesus thru Mary.

 

[Ohana]

but personally i don’t think it would be wrong if the runner from my example really enjoyed running again afterward.
Maybe even more. With more thankfulness?

Yes I agree. Gratitude, joy, all sorts of positive stuff that is offered back to God and not “owned” for oneself. I spoke earlier of a class on St. John of the Cross. The priest who taught it emphasized what a happy person St. John was. Not at all gloomy as it sometimes sounds, but taking joy in nature, the beauty around us. etc.

 

[mercytruth]

For me detachment is also about disconnecting oneself from oneself. We really need to quit focusing on the me

God’s peace

micah

 

[Kathrin]

i think i need to be a bit careful here.
Even though I think I am not as easily shaken by any comments, I do have this tendency towards scrupulosity and have struggled before with the fear if having to give up things BECAUSE they give me joy and put myself into big dilemmas because of this.Fortunately I could talk about this with a priest /priests.
I am mentioning this also because I may sound a bit defensive to some people, and then really I am defensive against that all-too-scrupulous part of me (of me? Maybe it is not part of ME) that likes to kill joy or whatever its intention is…

 

[mercytruth]

i think i need to be a bit careful here.
Even though I think I am not as easily shaken by any comments, I do have this tendency towards scrupulosity and have struggled before with the fear if having to give up things BECAUSE they give me joy and put myself into big dilemmas because of this.Fortunately I could talk about this with a priest /priests.
I am mentioning this also because I may sound a bit defensive to some people, and then really I am defensive against that all-too-scrupulous part of me (of me? Maybe it is not part of ME) that likes to kill joy or whatever its intention is…

I hope that I have not offended you. The comment I made was directed towards myself as much as anyone else. Yes, St. John of the Cross speaks of joy in Book Three, Chapters16 onward of** The Ascent of Mt.Carmel**. He categorizes and explains joy which is derived from temporal goods, natural goods, sensory goods, moral goods, supernatural goods, and spiritual goods.

I have to admit that I was disappointed that he did not continue his discussion on the other emotions of hope, sorrow, and fear.

Somewhere there is an Irish proverb on joy, but I have forgotten how it is stated.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[Ohana]

i think i need to be a bit careful here.
Even though I think I am not as easily shaken by any comments, I do have this tendency towards scrupulosity and have struggled before with the fear if having to give up things BECAUSE they give me joy and put myself into big dilemmas because of this.Fortunately I could talk about this with a priest /priests.
I am mentioning this also because I may sound a bit defensive to some people, and then really I am defensive against that all-too-scrupulous part of me (of me? Maybe it is not part of ME) that likes to kill joy or whatever its intention is…

Interesting observation. I encourage you Kathrin, to honor your joy. Even in the midst of some pretty difficult things, if we are doing as God wants us to do, we can experience joy. To be detached is not to be Joyless.

I think your original question had to do with running and exercising and whether that was vanity, and could you still take joy in it if you detached from vanity. My sense is that you are talking about two “outcomes”. The outcome of vanity would be and increase in pride; while the fruit of detachment might be joy. We cannot judge or decide for you. I respect your process of working this through. I know you have all the help in the world on this in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I will pray for you.

 

[Kathrin]

I hope that I have not offended you. The comment I made was directed towards myself as much as anyone else. Yes, St. John of the Cross speaks of joy in Book Three, Chapters16 onward of** The Ascent of Mt.Carmel**. He categorizes and explains joy which is derived from temporal goods, natural goods, sensory goods, moral goods, supernatural goods, and spiritual goods.

I have to admit that I was disappointed that he did not continue his discussion on the other emotions of hope, sorrow, and fear.

Somewhere there is an Irish proverb on joy, but I have forgotten how it is stated.

God’s peace be with you

micah

No of course you have not offended me
Maybe I just meant to say that we have to be careful because everybody’s situation is very different… and what is ver yhelpful for one person’s spiritual growth may not be good advice to somebody else. And I need to be careful to a) not make a scruple of something that somebody else says and b) also be aware that other people don’t have the same problems I do. But I guess that is normal in public forums

As i think I said, I am not as sensitive as I used to be. Maybe because now I have grown myself after having talked to priests a lot of times and also knwoing I can go to somebody who knows my struggles very well, if in doubt.

God’s joy and peace be with you too

Kathrin

 

[Kathrin]

Ohana:
Interesting observation. I encourage you Kathrin, to honor your joy. Even in the midst of some pretty difficult things, if we are doing as God wants us to do, we can experience joy. To be detached is not to be Joyless.

I think your original question had to do with running and exercising and whether that was vanity, and could you still take joy in it if you detached from vanity. My sense is that you are talking about two “outcomes”. The outcome of vanity would be and increase in pride; while the fruit of detachment might be joy. We cannot judge or decide for you. I respect your process of working this through. I know you have all the help in the world on this in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I will pray for you.

The running/exercising example I used for clarification, it is not really my exact story, even though what was going through my head when i wrote it was something similar. I didn’t want to get too personal though so I came up with this example. I think I wrote that.

If you pray for me please pray that I may let go of fears and scruples that are the most hindrance to joy at this time. This is what i really need to work on. And embrace God’s love and joy and peace. Fortunately I have very good spiritual guidance
But enough of this now; this is not what this thread has been about
thank you so much
May God bless you always.
Kathrin

 

[Kathrin]

I just remembered this thread today after mass and a homily that was SO VERY GOOD.
The priest in the homily stressed how everything in this world is transient. Even the plans we have for our lives. Our goals, our wishes. The church itself that we are in. The parish. Everything.
And that the question then is: What remains?
And abour reaching a point deep inside where we know: Even if everything is taken away from me, even if we are killed: We will not perish. THAT kind of deep faith, of foothold. Faith in God, HE is eternal, and HE is what remains… this gives us the real ground to stand on.

Ok I don’t remember exactly how he said everything, and I may have not used the right words now, but you get the point regarding this thread, maybe… I kind of felt then: Scrupling over what to detach from is not what this is about. More important than knowing what to let go is knowing WHAT REMAINS. And then knowing that WITH THIS FAITH, we COULD (if we had to) let go of everything, even our own life… and still be ok.
Wow.

 

[Abbagail]

Take for yourselves no purse, nor two tunics, etc.

Our LORD said it best. If you want a living example, look at St. Francis of Assisi.

I feel called to do the same, give up everything for the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyway, St. Francis of Assisi was dirt poor. He gave everything away. He fasted, kept vigils etc. He cried night and day over our SAVIORS suffering. He preached a purity and simplicity of heart that no eastern philosophy could approach. He made a bridge between the Muslims and Christians. He preached the gospel and created an Order that to this day has saved the souls of many, both through the Order and the actions from the Order. All He wanted to do was to preach the Gospel. If it was nessecary, then to use words as well.

Pray to St. Francis of Assisi, and Our LORD to ask THEM to help you become detached.

Amen!

 

[Abbagail]

This discussion is very interesting! I have a question though. Should we find joy in anything other than God?

 

[JMJ91]

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity (Ecclesiates 1:2)

**Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee **

Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee,
God of glory, Lord of love;
Hearts unfold like flowers before Thee,
Opening to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness,
Drive the dark of doubt away;
Giver of immortal gladness,
Fill us with the light of day.

All Thy woks with joy surround Thee,
Earth and heaven reflect Thy rays,
Stars and angels sing around Thee,
Center of unbroken praise.
Field and forest, vale and mountain,
Flowery meadow, flashing sea,
Chanting bird and flowing fountain,
Call us to rejoice in Thee.

Thou art giving and forgiving,
Ever blessing, ever blest,
Well-spring of the joy of living,
Ocean depth of happy rest!
Thou our Father, Christ our Brother,
All who live in love are Thine;
Teach us how to love each other,
Lift us to the Joy divine.

By - Henry van ****

To be joyful in something other than God is to be human…unless we are a Solomon, suffering loss, clinically depressed, or in the dark night… Not until we are transformed into the image of Jesus Christ will be joyful together… only in the joy Divine.