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cfauster
Guest
Can an emergentist view also be a genuinely theistic view?
Clayton says yes, or at least he says that the two are compatible.
For example, later in this Boyle Lecture - from which I’ve already quoted in a previous post - Clayton said the following:
“… humans do not just have emotional and aesthetical responses to the universe and the question of its ultimate meaning. Our attempts to construct meaning often come in the form of rather specific beliefs about the universe, about its ultimate origins and final destiny. Are all such beliefs mere projections onto a cold universe, bereft of meaning, by an animal all too hungry for some sense of cosmic purpose? Or are we justified in our hope and belief that some ultimate significance may underlie the process of emergence of which we ourselves are a part? … a world that is ‘upwardly open’, in the way that emergence theory describes it to be, might at its most complex levels manifest something of the influence of the divine … Science certainly constrains our beliefs about divine action, but it does not eliminate the possibility that a Creator is engaged at least with humanity, and perhaps elsewhere in the universe as well.”
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Tomdstone
Guest
I don’t see the proof that animals are not conscious of themselves.
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tonyrey
Guest
The onus is on you to prove that they are conscious of themselves because there is no evidence that they are capable of abstract reasoning or have a syntactic language which expresses attributes such as “I” and “you”. They are not held responsible for their behaviour which implies they cannot view themselves** objectively** as individuals. They don’t even need to be capable of introspection because their behaviour is instinctive or conditioned and dominated by the need for immediate action rather than reflection or decision-making. They live in the present without consciously taking the past or future into account and, most significantly of all, they show no awareness of their enduring identity. Unlike us they have an uncomplicated life without regret for the past or anxiety about the future. There is no evidence they can think about their qualities or compare themselves to others. Many are very intelligent but they show no sign of being able to describe themselves and simply make noises or leave scents to indicate their presence or territory. They don’t have free will but they are superior to us by being incapable of pride and contempt for others. They live at the natural level without worrying about themselves or being a part of the “rat race”! The self doesn’t exist in the animal world and all rats are equal…
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Excellent explanation - Thanks!The onus is on you to prove that they are conscious of themselves because there is no evidence that they are capable of abstract reasoning or have a syntactic language which expresses attributes such as “I” and “you”. They are not held responsible for their behaviour which implies they cannot view themselves** objectively** as individuals. They don’t even need to be capable of introspection because their behaviour is instinctive or conditioned and dominated by the need for immediate action rather than reflection or decision-making. They live in the present without consciously taking the past or future into account and, most significantly of all, they show no awareness of their enduring identity. Unlike us they have an uncomplicated life without regret for the past or anxiety about the future. There is no evidence they can think about their qualities or compare themselves to others. Many are very intelligent but they show no sign of being able to describe themselves and simply make noises or leave scents to indicate their presence or territory. They don’t have free will but they are superior to us by being incapable of pride and contempt for others. They live at the natural level without worrying about themselves or being a part of the “rat race”! The self doesn’t exist in the animal world and all rats are equal…
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Tomdstone
Guest
A cat may keep itself clean. This indicates it is conscious of itself.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
A dog may sniff its butt. It is unable to do otherwise. Same with the cat grooming itself. Instinctual. They can’t help it. They wouldn’t suddenly stop doing these things because they suddenly were aware of themselves and wondered if they should or should not be licking or sniffing themselves…
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tonyrey
Guest
It’s certainly aware of its body but not of an abstract concept of the self.
Best wishes to you and yours. …
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tonyrey
Guest
Entertaining and true! They seem to pay special attention to that department.
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