Detraction -- mega confused

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I don’t really understand this sin.

The catechism just says “without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them”. That seems super broad. Does it apply to public faults (i.e. X public figure said in a speech/ X writer wrote promoting abortion / same-sex ‘marriage’) if it’s to someone who doesn’t know them? And what would an objectively valid reason be?

It just seems like not much guidance for a sin that is maybe very easy to commit…
 
I don’t really understand this sin.

The catechism just says “without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them”. That seems super broad. Does it apply to public faults (i.e. X public figure said in a speech/ X writer wrote promoting abortion / same-sex ‘marriage’) if it’s to someone who doesn’t know them? And what would an objectively valid reason be?

It just seems like not much guidance for a sin that is maybe very easy to commit…
The Catechism is not a moral Theology text so it does not always go into detail you may be seeking at the time.

There are various things that can enter into the question of detraction. I will not here not them all…

To get to some of what you ask…

Yes one can find it said (in various moral theology works etc such is in the older manuals etc) that publicly known things (like the person has been convicted…or it is commonly known or if the fault was say committed by a public official in his exercise of his office…etc) can be not detraction…

but it can also be said one should not even spread things that are publicly known in one place but not in another…though perhaps there can be good reasons at times to do so…and I am not sure how how the modern explosion of media (internet etc) figures in.

There can be various reasons that are objectively valid…

Such as it is needed or very useful to defend oneself or for ones good…it is needed to be said for the proportionate good of another…like to the persons parents etc (some things even should be said!)…one may have reason to seek advice or even consolation from a trusted friend.

Hope that helps
 
I think a good example of detraction occurs with gossip. Imagine someone saying “oh, you wouldn’t want him for a neighbor…he just sits around outside drinking”. Or “You are so thoughtful!—not at all like my other cousin who never remembers anyone’s birthday”. That is detraction --revealing others’ faults without a good reason.
As I understand it, it is fine or even necessary to reveal faults in order to keep another person from harm. As in telling a babysitter “I don’t want my child playing in that guy’s yard because he is a convicted sex offender.”
As far as the public speech/writing, I think it is perfectly fine to make judgements and opinions about what was said, as long as what was said was meant to be public.

Hope you like the forums!
 
I don’t really understand this sin.

The catechism just says “without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them”. That seems super broad. Does it apply to public faults (i.e. X public figure said in a speech/ X writer wrote promoting abortion / same-sex ‘marriage’) if it’s to someone who doesn’t know them? And what would an objectively valid reason be?

It just seems like not much guidance for a sin that is maybe very easy to commit…
While the definition is very good…the Catechism is not a moral Theology text so it does not always go into detail you may be seeking at the time.

There are various things that can enter into the question of detraction. I will not here not them all…

To get to some of what you ask…

One can find it noted (in various moral theology works etc such is in the older manuals etc) that the fact that a thing is publicly known (like the person has been convicted…or it is commonly known or if the fault was say committed by a public official in his exercise of his office…etc) in a particular place can figure into things…(the fact that it is not known in another place too can figure into things!)…

There could be various reasons to reveal such…

It could be needed or very useful to defend oneself or for ones good…it is needed to be said for the proportionate good of another…like to the persons parents etc (some things even *should *be said!)…one may have reason to seek advice or even consolation from a trusted friend…such are some main examples that that can be given.

But it would need to be objectively valid…there has to be a real reason … not just a ‘made up reason’ so one can talk about someone…or cause say one wants to reveal it etc…

Like one would have a proportionately grave reason (one will find theologians noting the need for such) to say that so and so was convicted of child abuse…if you find out that they are baby sitting for your friends kids…and thus have grave reason for concern…

But not necessarily if they are just ones co-worker…and thus no children are involved…for such can make things bad for them in their work…

It can be sometimes tricky to judge.

Hope that helps
 
I don’t really understand this sin.

The catechism just says “without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them”. That seems super broad.
It’s not “super broad.” If you know something about someone that another wouldn’t know unless you told them, and that reveals a fault then it’s detraction.
Does it apply to public faults (i.e. X public figure said in a speech/ X writer wrote promoting abortion / same-sex ‘marriage’) if it’s to someone who doesn’t know them?
No. It;s public information.
And what would an objectively valid reason be?
Justice, preventing further harm, etc.

If I know my neighbor molested a child, for example, or committed some other crime I am obligated morally to reveal that to the authorities.
 
I also have a lot of trouble with this one. Saying anything that reveals a person’s fault does seem broad. Any fault? Does it have to be objectively known (public knowledge) or subjectively known (to the person you’re talking about it to)?

Does it mean I can never say anything negative about another person? Like, for example, suppose I want to complain to a friend about how someone treated me badly and has left me frustrated. Can I not do that, since it puts that person in a negative light? Is it okay as long as I never identify the person I’m complaining about? How are you supposed to get something off your chest when it relates to someone else?

What if someone asks me why I don’t want to hang out with a particular person? Am I allowed to say if it reveals that person’s faults?

What about saying that someone is a hypocrite? Reading gossip magazines? Listening to someone else say bad things about someone?

Also, can someone please give me some sort of way to judge the seriousness of the detraction?

Yes, those are a ton of questions. I skimmed the article off of New Advent, and that left me even more bothered.
 
It’s not “super broad.” If you know something about someone that another wouldn’t know unless you told them, and that reveals a fault then it’s detraction.

No. It;s public information.

Justice, preventing further harm, etc.

If I know my neighbor molested a child, for example, or committed some other crime I am obligated morally to reveal that to the authorities.
Is this your opinion or church teaching? I ask because your post seems much clearer than the CCC but also seems to add things I don’t see in the CCC.
 
CCC says one who “did not know.”

You say “wouldn’t know unless you told them.” That formulation leads to a public information exception and probably to an inevitably discovered exception that I can’t get from “did not know.”
 
The answer is really simple. If you don’t know if the other person already knows, then you say nothing. You err on not doing harm to someone else’s name.

If you know Jim Bob used to be a drunk a decade back, you don’t reveal that information to a potential friend unless you know that he is still a drunk and may harm the neighbor.

If a person has been jail for a crime and he serves his time, you have no right to tell all the neighbors of his crime if he moves to your area. This is VERY common and it does great damage to the person who has been in jail. It may even drive them to re-commit the crime if they feel that they will never be able to escape their past.
 
The answer is really simple. If you don’t know if the other person already knows, then you say nothing. You err on not doing harm to someone else’s name.

If you know Jim Bob used to be a drunk a decade back, you don’t reveal that information to a potential friend unless you know that he is still a drunk and may harm the neighbor.

If a person has been jail for a crime and he serves his time, you have no right to tell all the neighbors of his crime if he moves to your area. This is VERY common and it does great damage to the person who has been in jail. It may even drive them to re-commit the crime if they feel that they will never be able to escape their past.
I am not grasping what the distinction is between being able to talk if “he is still a drunk and may harm the neighbor” and the no telling if he has served his jail time. I may well still think him a threat but you seem to say no talking in that case. Please clarify.

Also, I am still wondering if there is support for 1ke’s wouldn’t have known formulation bs the CCC didn’t know standard.
 
The difference is you MAY KNOW FOR A FACT if a person is a drunk or not. If you KNOW FOR A FACT that the person is STILL a drunk then you have a duty to warn your neighbors and loved ones.

If a person no longer drinks,as far as you know, then you should NOT reveal past behavior that would only serve to damage the present reputation.

As to say, a sex offender, do we warn people about their presence. I think that without knowledge of WHAT type of person and the original crime, we can not make a good determination whether there is a threat or not.

Was conviction for sexual contact with a minor between an 18 year old having sexual relations with a 16 year old? Was it a 40 year old molesting a 12 year old?

The first scenerio would seem to be very common in society and conviction for this type of “technically” statutory rape should NOT carry any type of long term threat stigma. The second scenerio however is very different. If a person is convicted of this crime, and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person may re-offend, then I would say it would be ok.

It is a fine line to walk.
 
I also have a lot of trouble with this one. Saying anything that reveals a person’s fault does seem broad. Any fault? Does it have to be objectively known (public knowledge) or subjectively known (to the person you’re talking about it to)?

Does it mean I can never say anything negative about another person? Like, for example, suppose I want to complain to a friend about how someone treated me badly and has left me frustrated. Can I not do that, since it puts that person in a negative light? Is it okay as long as I never identify the person I’m complaining about? How are you supposed to get something off your chest when it relates to someone else?

What if someone asks me why I don’t want to hang out with a particular person? Am I allowed to say if it reveals that person’s faults?

What about saying that someone is a hypocrite? Reading gossip magazines? Listening to someone else say bad things about someone?

Also, can someone please give me some sort of way to judge the seriousness of the detraction?
This is such an important discussion! Thanks, OP, for posting.

I’d like to offer what little I know on the subject, as it has been one of those faults or sins that I’ve worked to try to root out of my life.

I first became aware of just how serious an offense detraction is when I was flicking through the channels a few years ago and I heard Fr. Benedict Groeschel stating, in no uncertain terms, that detraction is a mortal sin.

My priest also recently preached from the pulpit on the subject of mortal sin and included detraction in the list of such grievous offenses.

I can relate to the question above, re: how we can “vent” or “get something off our chest” and still not commit the sin of detraction. I really struggled with this myself, and sometimes still do.

I can only offer what I’ve learned through my personal experience; I believe I often overestimated the value or necessity of “venting,” as I believed “getting it off my chest” to be necessary for my emotional well-being.

Many evenings, my husband and I would “vent” to each other after a long day, believing this to be a healthy way to work through our feelings about the hurtful, aggravating or unfair things that happened to us that day. Very often, the identity of the “offender” was revealed through the course of the conversation, and we would end up feeling worse than we did before the conversation, because now we had spoken ill of someone.

*We finally accepted that we could no longer rationalize the need to relieve our stress through such discussions. It didn’t matter that we only said these things to each other, in the privacy of our home.This realization was such a grace!! As it turned out, the venting was so often just adding fuel to the fire–not getting it off our chest at all, just stoking he flames of anger, resentment, hurt pride, etc. *

I spent a long time I trying to figure out where the line was drawn…how much could I “get away” with saying before the talk became sinful or gravely sinful, how anonymous could I keep the person about whom I was complaining, could I justify the conversation. I finally realized that it is better to just keep silent, rather than always pushing the envelope.

I still struggle with this sin–less than I used to, but still…it is a great temptation. I have found, though, that in so many instances, the complaints or gossip felt “good” at the time, but were so unnecessary, and only mattered in the long run as far as the damage they did to my spiritual well-being and the reputation of another person…in other words, it feels good to vent or to gossip, but if you can resist the temptation in the moment, the need to blurt out the gossip or complaint ebbs away–and after much practice, and by the grace of God, the habit will be broken.

I hope this post was helpful to someone. The bottom line is that I believe it’s safer, better, more pleasing to God to simply never speak ill of another (child-molester-moving-in-next-door and other such scenarios excluded, I’m not commenting on those instances where detraction may truly be justified.)

St. Francis De Sales addresses the issue in his great wrok, Philothea:
“He who unjustly takes away his neighbour’s good name is guilty of sin, and is bound to make reparation, according to the nature of his evil speaking; since no man can enter into Heaven cumbered with stolen goods, and of all worldly possessions the most precious is a good name. Slander is a kind of murder; for we all have three lives–a spiritual life, which depends upon the Grace of God; a bodily life, depending on the soul; and a civil life, consisting in a good reputation. Sin deprives us of the first, death of the second, and slander of the third. But the slanderer commits three several murders with his idle tongue: he destroys his own soul and that of him who hearkens, as well as causing civil death to the object of his slander; for, as S. Bernard says, the Devil has possession both of the slanderer and of those who listen to him, of the tongue of the one, the ear of the other…My daughter, I entreat you never speak evil of any, either directly or indirectly; beware of ever unjustly imputing sins or faults to your neighbour, of needlessly disclosing his real faults, of exaggerating such as are overt, of attributing wrong motives to good actions, of denying the good that you know to exist in another, of maliciously concealing it, or depreciating it in conversation. In all and each of these ways you grievously offend God”

“Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you remember Christ crucified and be silent.”
  • St. John of the Cross
 
I finally realized that it is better to just keep silent, rather than always pushing the envelope.

I have found… …that in so many instances, the complaints or gossip felt “good” at the time, but were so unnecessary, and only mattered in the long run as far as the damage they did to my spiritual well-being and the reputation of another person…
I sincerely thank you for this. I struggle with detraction and gossip a lot - it seems like I can go to confession in the morning and have committed the same mortal sin by later that same afternoon…

If you think about it, detraction perhaps finds its roots at least partially in the sin of pride… it really shows a lack of prudence, a lack of humility, and a lack of silence. It can also be an expression of anger - oh how many sins I commit out of anger! - but really, there must be a healthier way to handle one’s anger.

Whenever we open our mouths to speak we should consider the purpose behind our words. If it is not a holy or fruitful purpose, then perhaps we should consider remaining silent since silence is spiritually fruitful and a holy thing.

I learned today, also, that St. Catherine of Sienna was completely silent for three years after entering the Third Order of St. Dominic. What a grace!!!

Thank you for adding to my reflections on the value of silence. I think this will be my goal for the rest of Lent: to remain silent unless it is necessary to speak. Pray for me, since this will be hard - I clearly like to talk! 🙂

wayward
 
Amen, Wayward!!

You are not alone. We share a common struggle–I can completely relate to all of the points in your last post.

Let’s pray for each other during the remainder of Lent, that the Lord will grant us special graces to allow us to grow in the virtue and discipline of silence.
 
Madeline - yes, I will pray for you and be greatful for your prayers 🙂

I was thinking more on this today, and also realized that another way that detraction can come upon us, through pride, is when we are trying to show ourselves to be victims or not responsible for some evil we have done, or when we are blaming another for our sins - or when we are attempting to justify our sins by saying “well so and so does this also or in a worse way than I do”.

Humility would be a good remedy for this, since humility is honest and recognizes our own faults as well as our accomplishments, rendering all glory to God and being truly penitent for our sins.

So it is in the virtues of humility and silence that I seek now to grow and learn. Please pray for me in this - I am naturally extroverted, loud, and always have been a people pleaser seeking glory and popularity often at the cost of my faith. This will be a major challenge, but in a way I am looking forward to it and thanking God for having shown me this today.

yours in Christ
Amylia
 
I first became aware of just how serious an offense detraction is when I was flicking through the channels a few years ago and I heard Fr. Benedict Groeschel stating, in no uncertain terms, that detraction is a mortal sin.
If the subject matter of the detraction is serious matter, such as someone’s history of being arrested, then objectively speaking, detraction is a mortal sin.

But if the subject matter of the detraction is minor, such as so-and-so got a speeding ticket for going 65 in a 55 MPH zone, then the detraction is a venial sin.

The 3 conditions for someone to actually be guilty of committing a mortal sin (i.e, serious matter, full knowledge, and full consent) apply to ALL mortal sins, including the sin of detraction.
 
If the subject matter of the detraction is serious matter, such as someone’s history of being arrested, then objectively speaking, detraction is a mortal sin.

But if the subject matter of the detraction is minor, such as so-and-so got a speeding ticket for going 65 in a 55 MPH zone, then the detraction is a venial sin.

The 3 conditions for someone to actually be guilty of committing a mortal sin (i.e, serious matter, full knowledge, and full consent) apply to ALL mortal sins, including the sin of detraction.
Actually, mortal sin occurs when the detraction causes grave harm to the person being talked about. Maybe that seems like a small distinction to you, but I think it’s important.

Again, see the Jimmy Akin link – it’s pretty thorough, but a relatively easy read. He explains that causing grave harm to the person means something like the detraction causing him to lose his job or destroy his marriage.
 
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