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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Just wondering if there is anyone from Assumption Grotto in Detroit, MI lurking. I’ve been sneaking into your parish and like it. I wanted to make some observations for fun.
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Toni
Guest
I am not a member but know Fr. Perrone .My sister a nun in the Order Sister’s of the Holy Cross lives on the grounds there. I have been to Mass there a few times.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Sweet! Let me tell you that every nun and priest on those grounds is truly blessed with the opportunity to be within that “community”, as are the parishioners. I feel so bad for those priests who find themselves locked into what I call an “American Rite” situation. I’ve seen new priests come into such a parish and attempt to correct things, only to get beaten into submission or fall into apathy. Feel free to share this info if it humors anyone there - they’ve earned it. I’m anxious to see if anyone else feels this way.
I need to break it into two parts
Keep in mind that I was born and raised in the “American Rite” and was raised after Vatican II. It’s easy for me to see subtle differences because I’m fresh from one culture - “American Rite” and landing into what I’m beginning to feel is a true “Latin Rite” parish.
I like to study cultures and I pick up subtle things. Here are some of my observations - comments welcome. I’m tempted to take a clipboard to get data samples on how many times I observe certain things to see if my preliminary observations mesh with the data. This is a contrast between the “American Rite” and a good “Latin Rite” parish (read that, Assumption Grotto)
DISCLAIMER: Personal observations and opinions - no data involved. No offense or disrespect intended in communication of these opinions and observations. These are preliminary and raw.
PASTORAL STATUS
Average “American Rite” Parish: Perception is that it is more of a business or focused on administrative, more so than pastoral. In all charity, fewer priests may be a contributor.
Assumption Grotto: Highly pastoral (and this is visible after just two weeks or so of engagement). High number of priests available aids this, but it appears to be more of an “attitude” .
PRAYER STATUS
Average “American Rite” Parish: Prayerful atmosphere is not readily visible other than scheduled events such as Mass. Seeing priests in prayer outside of mass, leading by example, is rarely, but sometimes visible. The church empties abruptly, usually before mass ends, with barely a soul left in the pew. This causes a flee response, even in me (so shameful, I know). Prayer is seen, but a sense of intensity out of the many is not felt by me personally, nor did I feel like exercising it.
Assumption Grotto: Prayer is not only highly visible outside of the mass on the part of the priests there (have only seen sisters in Mass), but it is highly visible in the laity in a profound way. I only attended one Sunday mass there, but sense people sticking around for more prayer. I plan on observing for this tomorrow. This highly visible, prayerful culture leads one to want to do the same. I know, it has lured me already as I look to start some of my workdays later through flex-time so I can engage in 7:00am Lauds and 7:30 mass once or twice a week. Post-Mass atmosphere was inviting to prayer, saying a rosary or reading because the spirit of prayer fills the air there. Intensity of prayer, especially Mass as prayer, is something I sense deeply at this church. After a time, it becomes “catchy” to engage more deeply, as well.
PENITENTIAL STATUS
Average “American Rite” Parish: Outside of Divine Mercy Saturdays, you’re lucky to see a handful of people seeking confession (and most have gray hair - no disrespect intended). Confessions not offered prior to masses (priest shortage may explain in part with fewer priests at these parishes). Younger people are hardly seen seeking penance.
Assumption Grotto: Only observed pre-mass penance lines and numbers are striking.Highly penitential community with confession offered outside of regularly posted hours (and people respond to the presence of a priest in a confessional). Ages are well mixed from what I have seen - pending further observations and maybe study. In any event, excuses for not receiving communion, or temptation to receive communion while not in the state of grace are lessened or removed (goes to pastoral status). Need more observation of Saturday confessions outside of Divine Mercy days, or to even contrast participation on these days.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
REVERENCE STATUS DURING MASS
Average “American Rite” Parish: (Does not mean everyone, just a perception based on experience). “Reverence, what’s that?” (I know, I lack it and told God to help me regain a sense of reverence 3 weeks before coming to A.G.). Sitting postures sometimes sloppy and loose waiting for the “concert” to begin (I was one of them). Standing postures include everything from hands crossed in prayer to holding oneself up with by the pew in front of them (I was one of these too), leaning on one leg or another. Fairly good numbers of young children are unrestricted and often moving about, eating cheerios, playing with toys. Many are undisciplined, unruly, and discontent while sitting still - parents sometimes stressed. Children old enough to use the restroom, are seen heading off at any time of the Mass including Consecration. Bubbling babies become star attractions for those in pews behind as lots of goo-goo faces and smiles are sent to make them laugh and smile (did this too – for long periods – mea culpa!). Genuflecting is often barely a limp and don’t blink you’ll miss it (guilty here too). Whispering heard at every mass. Touching others seen - hugging, rubbing a back, frequent eye contact. Bowing is unseen for the most part, as is striking the breast during the Confiteor. Postures of “anything goes except ‘oran’s posture’” rules. Even hands at the sides seem less strange than approaching with “oran’s”
Assumption Grotto: (Applies to mostly all which allowed me to recognize that which is written above because it is so striking when witnessing it for the first time). Highly reverent. Sitting upright. Hands folded in prayer when standing and not leaning on one leg or the other (standing straight). No holding of pews while standing. Young children restricted to pews and sitting in manners that reveal contentment and self-discipline (further observation required) - parents focused on mass since children are too. Older children not heading off to bathroom, especially during consecration (further observation required). Babies taken in back - walking, but further observation of people’s response around babies is needed. Genuflecting is to the floor, often held, with purpose and deep perception of holiness. People make no eye contact with each other during the mass, let alone touch each other. Bowing is uniform, deep, held long, and conveys sincerity. Many strike their breast at the “mea culpa.” Oran’s posture highly visible by priests and liturgical participants. Ditto with many of the laity as they head to communion.
MASS CENTERING:
Average “American Rite” Parish: People-centered or blended people/God centered.
Assumption Grotto: Highly God centered. All focus on God and zero focus in any manner on people, including parents on children, spouses, and possibly people’s natural response to babies (still need to observe, but guessing I will find this true). People-centering takes place outside of the mass. This goes to the high level of reverence displayed and complete lack of acknowledgement of those in surrounding areas.
CONCLUSION
Based on some preliminary fruits that I see, something very good is happening in this parish and I’ve only just begun to note them. If only I could gather data to write a report for some journal - from the viewpoint of a converted member of the laity.
Witnessing and experiencing this “God-centering” makes me feel for the first time that there is something inherently wrong with the “American-Rite”.
Needless to say, I think God answered my plea to help me regain my sense of reverence by telling me that I had none to begin with. He sent me to the Grotto and now that I have witnessed reverence and a God-centered mass, I see the connection. One doesn’t get reverence – they either are or aren’t reverent and the God-centered mass is the fuel that drives it.
Average “American Rite” Parish: (Does not mean everyone, just a perception based on experience). “Reverence, what’s that?” (I know, I lack it and told God to help me regain a sense of reverence 3 weeks before coming to A.G.). Sitting postures sometimes sloppy and loose waiting for the “concert” to begin (I was one of them). Standing postures include everything from hands crossed in prayer to holding oneself up with by the pew in front of them (I was one of these too), leaning on one leg or another. Fairly good numbers of young children are unrestricted and often moving about, eating cheerios, playing with toys. Many are undisciplined, unruly, and discontent while sitting still - parents sometimes stressed. Children old enough to use the restroom, are seen heading off at any time of the Mass including Consecration. Bubbling babies become star attractions for those in pews behind as lots of goo-goo faces and smiles are sent to make them laugh and smile (did this too – for long periods – mea culpa!). Genuflecting is often barely a limp and don’t blink you’ll miss it (guilty here too). Whispering heard at every mass. Touching others seen - hugging, rubbing a back, frequent eye contact. Bowing is unseen for the most part, as is striking the breast during the Confiteor. Postures of “anything goes except ‘oran’s posture’” rules. Even hands at the sides seem less strange than approaching with “oran’s”
Assumption Grotto: (Applies to mostly all which allowed me to recognize that which is written above because it is so striking when witnessing it for the first time). Highly reverent. Sitting upright. Hands folded in prayer when standing and not leaning on one leg or the other (standing straight). No holding of pews while standing. Young children restricted to pews and sitting in manners that reveal contentment and self-discipline (further observation required) - parents focused on mass since children are too. Older children not heading off to bathroom, especially during consecration (further observation required). Babies taken in back - walking, but further observation of people’s response around babies is needed. Genuflecting is to the floor, often held, with purpose and deep perception of holiness. People make no eye contact with each other during the mass, let alone touch each other. Bowing is uniform, deep, held long, and conveys sincerity. Many strike their breast at the “mea culpa.” Oran’s posture highly visible by priests and liturgical participants. Ditto with many of the laity as they head to communion.
MASS CENTERING:
Average “American Rite” Parish: People-centered or blended people/God centered.
Assumption Grotto: Highly God centered. All focus on God and zero focus in any manner on people, including parents on children, spouses, and possibly people’s natural response to babies (still need to observe, but guessing I will find this true). People-centering takes place outside of the mass. This goes to the high level of reverence displayed and complete lack of acknowledgement of those in surrounding areas.
CONCLUSION
Based on some preliminary fruits that I see, something very good is happening in this parish and I’ve only just begun to note them. If only I could gather data to write a report for some journal - from the viewpoint of a converted member of the laity.
Witnessing and experiencing this “God-centering” makes me feel for the first time that there is something inherently wrong with the “American-Rite”.
Needless to say, I think God answered my plea to help me regain my sense of reverence by telling me that I had none to begin with. He sent me to the Grotto and now that I have witnessed reverence and a God-centered mass, I see the connection. One doesn’t get reverence – they either are or aren’t reverent and the God-centered mass is the fuel that drives it.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
I must make another disclaimer: This is based on the 9:30am Latin Mass on Pentecost, and on several weekday 7:30 am masses, if that explains anything. Somehow, I have a feeling I’ll see similar observations at the later Mass tomorrow so we’ll see.
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grotto
Guest
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_1_70v.gif I’m here! Baptized, 1st Confession, Holy Communion, Confirmation and Marriage (of course a student 1st thru 8th grade).
Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother welcome me back with such a great comfort of being “Home”. The problem is living too far away to return very often. Our Blessed Mother has definitely kept this parish under the protection of her mantle. I am going to be there for sure on the Feast of the Assumption this year! You are SO lucky to be able to go there. Please do and say a Hello prayer for me! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_33.gif
Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother welcome me back with such a great comfort of being “Home”. The problem is living too far away to return very often. Our Blessed Mother has definitely kept this parish under the protection of her mantle. I am going to be there for sure on the Feast of the Assumption this year! You are SO lucky to be able to go there. Please do and say a Hello prayer for me! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_33.gif
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QUICUMQUE_VULT
Guest
Just wanted to, let you know Lux, I enjoy your posts
God bless you
Our Lady keep you
Quicumque Vult,salvus esse,ante omnia opus est,ut teneat Catholicam fidem!
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
You got it!
How far away are you?
The parish definitely “pulls” with strong magentism for me. My only prior experience with a mass in Latin was in Greektown at Old St. Mary’s and I did enjoy it, but there is a culture I’m wanting to immerse myself in at the Grotto. I believe it is the Lord calling and if I have learned one thing in the last two months, sometimes you just need to “do it” and not ask any questions. I’ve tried to grasp the deeper meaning of reverence decades ago, and now “I get it” after only few visits. It started witin minutes after I went to my first Mass there. I found myself slumping with those sloppy postures and thought to myself that, “when in Rome, do as the Romans do” (no pun intended). I never had to bow in church.
I must also confess that I felt the atmosphere cold at first when I sensed no contact between people throughout the Mass. It struck me on the way home from Friday morning Mass that it was far from cold - it was God-Centered or focused 200% on Him. Then it felt very warm. The light bulb switched on.
Make no mistake. I’m not saying that there is anything wrong, for example, with people such as charismatics who are compelled to hold hands, or raise them, or whatever. This is good. But now I ponder if those things are intended to make us feel good, or if they are intended to make God feel good. Only an individual spirit knows his or her intentions. I believe that just like the sweetness He allows us to feel in certain types of prayers, He doesn’t mind so much that people do these things. At some point, we all have to pursue the blocking of everything but Him, especially those to whom we are closest.
A God-centered Mass drives us to go to the next level. To forget what makes US feel good. In forgetting about those around us, and even forgetting about ourselves, we GIVE OURSELVES entirely to HIM for that period.
It was a different experience to observe Fr. Perrone say Mass with an intensity level that quite clearly says, “I am yours for this hour Lord”. He has tuned out everything but the prayer of the Mass. Some might understand it better if I were to say, he is in “the zone.” Some may see this as strange or even cold, but I see it as a learning moment about where our hearts and minds should be directed every second of the Mass.
When I spoke of priests being examples this was one thing I picked up on. People sense reverence from our shepherds and that reverence projects back to the people and draws them like a magnet. People sense a prayerful attitude and it has the same magnetic pull. In the case of the Grotto, even the prayerful attitude of the laity draws one in. When I found out that Fr. Perrone rises so early to pray each morning (3:00am, if I recall), I couldn’t help but look at my life and how many hours were absorbed in TV, hobbies, and work. How could I look this man in the face and say that I don’t have time to pray?
This is the power of a priest who leads by example. I believe that God rewards such people with this gift of “pulling” others to Him. I haven’t had the TV on for weeks and when it is on, it is tuned to EWTN. My fish tanks that I spent a good 6 hours on weekly, get the bare minimum to stay functional and clean (not to worry - they are well fed). My job that I was married to, working 10-12 hours daily on 8 hours pay, has now been reduced to 8 hours daily. The false Gods came into plain view and now there is time for activities like this, and for prayer, and for spending quality time with my loved ones.
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
QUICUMQUE VULT:
It’s too funny
I remember thinking so many times in my past that I should go to confession more often. The Grotto invites people in a warm way to not only get rid of the baggage as soon as possible, but to strive for holiness by pursuing virtue. The ease of availability of the Sacrament of Penance makes it difficult to escape it’s lure.
Thank you, and you are right about Our Lady. In fact, I will say that never in my life have I ever had a penance to say an entire Rosary - until I got to Assumption Grotto. I was pleasantly shocked when it was given to me and cherished every moment with the Blessed Mother in asking for her help. Those 3 Our Fathers and Hail Marys just didn’t have the same power. I had it coming anyway after years of seeking out priests who would “go easy” on me.
It’s too funny
I remember thinking so many times in my past that I should go to confession more often. The Grotto invites people in a warm way to not only get rid of the baggage as soon as possible, but to strive for holiness by pursuing virtue. The ease of availability of the Sacrament of Penance makes it difficult to escape it’s lure.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
OK - another observation after being at 12:00 mass today. Got there early and saw about 18-20 people seeking penance at three confessionals that were operating. I didn’t see how many more continued to get in line after that.
The numbers are one thing - I don’t recall seeing that many people going to confession on a Saturday outside of Divine Mercy.
But what struck me was the depth I sensed out of these people as I walked to the back of the church for something. It was a depth of contrition I felt.
Yes, Virginia, there really is a God, and he seems to be in high gear at the Grotto.
The numbers are one thing - I don’t recall seeing that many people going to confession on a Saturday outside of Divine Mercy.
But what struck me was the depth I sensed out of these people as I walked to the back of the church for something. It was a depth of contrition I felt.
Yes, Virginia, there really is a God, and he seems to be in high gear at the Grotto.
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netmilsmom
Guest
"Even hands at the sides seem less strange than approaching with “oran’s”
This makes me Laugh!
Your Father John Bustemante was at our SS Cyril and Methodius.
The Grotto has a great Homeschool program. I will make it there someday!
This makes me Laugh!
Your Father John Bustemante was at our SS Cyril and Methodius.
The Grotto has a great Homeschool program. I will make it there someday!
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Clarification - I meant I didn’t ever see those kinds of numbers at any American Rite parish (looking back over a decade or more) on a Saturday that wasn’t associated with Divine Mercy or other significant prompt.
Of the American Rite parishes that have more than one priest, for the life of me I don’t understand why they wouldn’t just go to the box and see if people will come.
To be pastoral is to care for the needs of the flock. Helping them to unload excess baggage so that they can get back into the state of grace and receive communion and is chief among them.
Assumption Grotto seems to grasp that if you put the water troughs out, the horses will come and drink - no prodding required.
It’s just so new to me that it is shocking.
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
I was already thinking that if I were a mom and had a husband who made modest income, we’d do without the extra income I could provide and I’d stay home and home-school, without a doubt. I’m impressed. And, the freedom to be able to take kids to mass to start the day!
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Detroit_Sue
Guest
I’m emailing this thread to Fr. Bustamante! God is certainly afoot at Grotto!!!
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Toni
Guest
I will also forward your statistics to my Sister. They have many holy priests in their order who also help Fr. Peronne.They are all holy and reverent nuns there as well. I believe that the people that travel to that parish are truly blessed. All the Masses at Assumption Grotto are beautiful.
Our Lady had truly looked after that parish.
Unfortunately it is far from me but I have found a lot of true Catholicism, reverence, and peace at St. Cyril and Methodius.
Our Lady had truly looked after that parish.
Unfortunately it is far from me but I have found a lot of true Catholicism, reverence, and peace at St. Cyril and Methodius.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Me too!
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Lets be careful now as what I’m displaying is anything but statistics. I’m just wondering if it would be appropriate to gather statistics. I have a cousin who just got her Ph.D. in Sociology and I could get her guidance in setting up a study. I would start with confession stats by just collecting data over a one month period, but I would need to get some volunteers to randomly select some parishes in metro-detroit to compare against (like pull the names out of a hat). These parishes would not be identified other than by a designator of Parish-A, B, C, etc.
And, if you’re going to email this out there, ask the good Fathers if there are a few good priests willing to come to this site for 15 minutes a day to answer just one or two questions. If they look beyond the technical questions, they will find a cyber-flock just crying out for help, many of them teenagers coping with sins of habit and addiction who can’t bring themselves to confession or are apprehensive about it. I find several per week.
I’ve found some posts where teens caught in a cycle of daily self-abuse or porn addiction and want to get out and have given up hope. They need coaxing to get them back intno confession. All they need is a boost or help in understanding how to approach the issue. There are a small number of priests and brothers lurking in these forums, but if we got a great big number of priests all answer just one or two posts a day, under a screen name that designates them as Fr. or Br. or Sr., that would be so great to see. The cyber-flock awaits. They speak of their deepest troubles here in ways they can’t with their families and friends, so I personally extend that invite through those of you close to them there. Hopefully, they can spread the word.
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Toni
Guest
Sorry used the wrong choice of words. I forget how seriously people take that word some times.
I think it would be great and would love to suggest it. I will send it but I can just about tell you in dealing with many good priests out there. They are literally swamped with requests for confession, Mass, retreats, etc… I know even with the Legionaries of Christ their schedules are jammed. Its odd that the better the priest the busier the priest. Why does that not give some the hint that there are many out in the world crying for good and holy priests
But be warned as many times as I have asked I have been told that you have to first help the ones standing in line at the door before you can run after the ones that aren’t. There is just to much work and not enough good and holy priests to do it all. If you want to help send an email to my sister at oaorders@rc.net ask to be a part of the adopt a priest program. Prayer is the only thing that will change this situation.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Could you please explain this program a little more?
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Toni
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
In their order they have a card that is sent out with the name of a priest or bishop. You pray for that priest for an entire year. That simple.
Although when I asked her who prays for the nuns and the consecrated she said no one, you should start that.
I am working on the cards. I posted the idea on the board but only heard from a couple of people.
Sometimes people just become so frustrated with the situations in the Church that it becomes much easier to write about the negative.
I being guilty of this have decided to redirect my negative energy.
I would love to.
In their order they have a card that is sent out with the name of a priest or bishop. You pray for that priest for an entire year. That simple.
Although when I asked her who prays for the nuns and the consecrated she said no one, you should start that.
I am working on the cards. I posted the idea on the board but only heard from a couple of people.
Sometimes people just become so frustrated with the situations in the Church that it becomes much easier to write about the negative.
I being guilty of this have decided to redirect my negative energy.
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