Deut 1:39 can this apply to aborted babies?

[Daniel_Marsh]

Deuteronomy 1:34-39 (King James Version)

34And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,

35Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.

36Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.

37Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.

38But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.

39Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The argument is that babies do not have knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Romans 5:12-14 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but **sin is not imputed when there is no law. **

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[jcrichton]

Deuteronomy 1:34-39 (King James Version)

34And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,

35Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.

36Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.

37Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.

38But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.

39Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The argument is that babies do not have knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Romans 5:12-14 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but **sin is not imputed when there is no law. **

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

***Hi, Daniel Marsh!

Clearly aborted children are not abetting those who seek their demise so they cannot be held culpable of any wrongdoing. The fact the we are born under the curse of the original sin should not be a factor hindering their Salvation for we are Saved by Grace. It is the God of Grace Who has given up His human life so that in Him we shall all be Saved. And since Yahweh God is not limited by the Word of the Holy Scriptures He is able to rescue those who die ignorant of His Salvific Plan (Genesis 5:23-24; 2 Kings 2:11; St. Luke 23:43; St. Matthew 27:51-53; Matthew 17:2-3; Acts 9:1-22; 1 St. Peter 3:18-20; 4:6).

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[Dauphin]

“Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (John 3, 5)

Here, Christ is proclaiming a universal law. If we have confidence in the words of Christ, then we must believe that absolutely no human being may enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost. Christ offers no exception. This is a necessity of means; it is the only means possible of salvation.

The Catholic Church has always interpreted this passage literally, meaning that Christ was referring to true water. It decreed this authoritatively at Trent:

“If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.” - 2nd canon on baptism

I’m certainly willing to listen to the views of others, but I have absolutely no hope for the salvation of unborn Children. The teachings of Christ seem extremely clear.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

book to download, A Refutation of Calvinism,
books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=QYgPAAAAIAAJ&dq=refuting+original+sin&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=gQuwoRy3cD&sig=xfaVh7cA-0lCf66JmI4rUKVHQjI

Quote:​

Scriptural refutation of Inherited Sin

A. The mechanism for the transmission of inherited sin false:
Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30

1. Exodus 32:3133 In this passage, Moses wanted to receive the punishment for someone else’s sin. In verse 33, the one who sinned is removed from the book, not the one whose parents have sinned.

We will be judged only by our own actions: Mt 12:36-37; Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; 1 Pe 1:17
Isa 59:1-2, “Your sins have separated you from your God” not Adams

Sin is committed by individually breaking God’s law: 1 Jn 3:4 (Infants have done nothing)

Where is one Bible verse that says we will be condemned for sin other than our own?

B. Unsaved and unregenerate men are capable of doing good and have freewill:

Calvinists teach that if a sinner helps an accident victim, he still sins because he does it for the wrong motive.

Gentiles do by nature the good things of the law: Rom 2:14-16

Cornelius was devout, feared God, righteous, Acts 10:1-4, 22 yet unsaved: 11:14

Man has a freewill and can choose to do good or evil: Josh 24:15 “Choose this day…”

C. God requires man to act and do something to be saved…infants can’t act or do
“Unless you repent you will perish”: Lk 13:3
“Save yourselves”: Acts 2:40 KJV
“Repent and be baptized every one of you for forgiveness of sins”: Acts 2:38

Why are we told to “work out our own salvation”: Phil 2:12

The spoken and written gospel message is God’s power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 cor 1:18

D. The words used to describe salvation refute inherited sin:

These words imply that we, individually, were once in God’s grace at conception and birth

Justification - Romans 5:18
A court term; a legal word
Addresses the subject of our guilt before God

Reconciliation - Romans 5:6-11; Col 1:14,20,21
A word dealing with social intercourse; human relations; to make friendly again, payment of a price to recover from the power of another, a restoration to favor.
Addresses the subject of our being estranged from God

Redemption - Colossians 1:13-14
to buy back; A slavery term; human commerce; purchasing one’s freedom; a ransom
Addresses the subject of our slavery to sin

“Regenerate”
to generate again, renewed, restored

E. The Bible describes infants are pure and holy:

Why would Jesus use infants as a model for all believers to imitate in character if they were “utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil”? Mt 18:1-3; 19:13-14

Paul also used infants as a model of purity for Christians to follow: 1 Cor 14:20

Paul states that he was once spiritually alive but then he sinned & died/was killed: Rom 7:9-11

God said that the king of Tyrus was “blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.” Ezek 28:15

“God made men upright but they sought devices” Eccl 7:29 (plural can’t refer only to Adam)

Newborns do not know the difference between good and evil
God allowed the children to enter Canaan but not the parents: “your little ones who…have no knowledge of good and evil shall enter”. Deut 1:34-39

Jacob & Esau, “the twins were not yet born, and had done nothing good or bad” Rom 9:11

Jesus “Before He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good” Isa 7:15-16

Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the “blood of the innocent”

If newborns do not know “good or evil” yet the Bible says , “Your sins have separated you from your God” (Isa 59:1-2) then newborns must be born united with God.

As in Adam, all die… 1 Cor 15:22

Text Newborn, innocent & alive Sinner, guilty & dead
Adam & Eve: Gen 1-3
Didn’t know good from evil
Ate forbidden fruit

Jacob & Esau: Rom 9:11
Don’t know good from evil
When they sin against God

Jesus: Isa 7:15-16
Didn’t know good from evil
Jesus never sinned

Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11
“Once alive”
“sin killed me”

King of Tyre: Ezek 28:15
“Blameless from creation”
“until sin found in him”

All men: Eccl 7:29
God made men upright
They sought out devices

Like Adam, each man is born in the “Garden” and is cast out when he sins

F. The second Spiritual death implies a first spiritual death & initial spiritual life:

Second death is hell: It is a spiritual separation from God: Rev 20:6,14

First death is when we first sin and are separated from God till judgement

For us to die a first death we must have been spiritually alive at birth.

---

bible.ca/cal-T-refutation.htm

calvinist proof texts answered,
bible.ca/cal-T-calvinist-prooftexts.htm

bible.ca/cal-T-questions.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Romans 5:12-14 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: **but sin is not imputed when there is no law. **

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Isaiah 7:16 (King James Version)

For before the **child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, **the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

 

[Nita]

“Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (John 3, 5)

Here, Christ is proclaiming a universal law. If we have confidence in the words of Christ, then we must believe that absolutely no human being may enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost. Christ offers no exception. This is a necessity of means; it is the only means possible of salvation.

The Catholic Church has always interpreted this passage literally, meaning that Christ was referring to true water. It decreed this authoritatively at Trent:

“If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.” - 2nd canon on baptism

I’m certainly willing to listen to the views of others, but I have absolutely no hope for the salvation of unborn Children. The teachings of Christ seem extremely clear.

The Catholic Church has always recognized baptism of desire and baptism of blood as a means of salvation - in addition to sacramental baptism with water. (CCC #1257-1261)

*CCC #1261 …Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them”, **allow us to hope *that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism…

We have no idea what interaction may take place between God and the baby in the womb - just prior to his/her being aborted. (Just consider for example, John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb.)

Nita

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Deuteronomy 1:34-39 (King James Version)

34And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,

35Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.

36Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.

37Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.

38But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.

39Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

How would aborted babies enter the land promised to the Israelites ?​

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The argument is that babies do not have knowledge of good and evil.

They were “in Adam”, as was the rest of the human race. If that is enough to cause everyone else to inherit his guilt & alienation from God, what exempts them ?​

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

What has that to with them ? The rest of the Psalm is surely as important as verse 1 ​

Romans 5:12-14 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but **sin is not imputed when there is no law. **

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

And sin is imputed where there is law - & they are as under the “law of sin” as anyone else.​

FWIW, ISTM that none of these passages have any more to do with aborted babies, than with the thousands of other things they do not refer to. That doesn’t of itself make those other things of no account - merely irrelevant to a great many passsages in the Bible.

 

[jcrichton]

We have no idea what interaction may take place between God and the baby in the womb - just prior to his/her being aborted. (Just consider for example, John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb.)

Nita

***Hi, Nita!

Exactly!

It is not that we can somehow discover a formula in the Holy Scriptures for making Yahweh God behave according to our desires… it is that He has already Created everything according to His Will and it is His Will that we live! (Deuteronomy 30:19; Ezekiel 18) How He goes about accomplishing Salvation is His Own determination, not ours!

Maran atha!

Angel***